Product Powwow

kevin-_7_10-17-2024_171817: Today,
I talked to three design industry

luminaries about the current state
of design and potential path forward.

They're all seasoned hands who have
ridden out a few downturns in their

time, and can take a long view on
design from different vantage points.

Robert Fabrikant is a social
impact designer based in New York,

who specializes in healthcare
and has previously worked at

the design consultancy, Frog.

Sean Carney has a background in
industrial design and has held various

design leadership roles in a number of
different corporations, including, 15

years as chief design officer at Philips.

So he gives a highly authoritative.

Corporate design view on the situation.

And finally, Warren Hutchinson, has
moved from industrial design to UX,

to what he would probably call digital
transformation design, both in house

and as a consultant, including His
current consultancy, which he co founded,

we cover how their careers have developed
and how the design profession in general

has evolved to where it is today.

Then we move on to the symptoms and
drivers of the current malaise in design.

And we end with how to elevate
designers credibility and position

within the organization, which includes
an interesting section on whether

designers have over specialized.

What designers should call themselves
and where in the organization

they can most effectively operate.

Okay.

Let's get into it.

Kevin: So welcome to the podcast guys.

the topic of this episode is what I've
called the design doldrums, but we'll get

into what that means in a second, but I
wanted the three of you on this topic.

Because I think first Robert wrote
an article early this year in Fasco.

They've got lots of people talking
on both sides of the Atlantic,

if not the Pacific, I don't know.

and he was, his, he was asking the
fundamental question is business breaking

up with design or starting to break up
design was the provocative question there,

and then I've had side conversations,
with Sean and Warren, on the same topic.

So why don't we just
start by you all giving.

Introduction and your kind of.

So should we start with you, Robert?

Robert: Yeah, great.

And first, thanks for inviting me
in, to be part of this conversation.

And I know that we're all continuing
to be in spaces where we're

continuing to reflect with a lot of
peers on some of these questions.

and I think it's just great to
bring that out into the open.

My background in relation to the topic,
I've been working in design for coming

on 30 years and, back to the way you
framed it, I would say I've up with

design several times during that period.

I'd like to.

I think that at different points in
time I am capable of taking a bit of

a fresh look at my own relationship to
design and what I think is going on.

And for me writing is
definitely one way I do that.

In terms of my own kind of personal
journey I would say that the, all

those breakups, the through line is
just a real focus on the connection

of design and systems change.

And that's something that I've been
doing, in different ways in different

places, whether it's places like
Microsoft and frog, and now much

more in the public sector, working on
social impact work with my own global

practice, part of a firm called Dahlberg.

so that's what I do.

And, I definitely appreciate
the opportunity to bring

design into new spaces and new
conversations, as well as reflect.

peers, particularly, on the journey
ahead in that I struggle to find the

role models that I thought I might, be
looking at this stage of my career, a

lot of the venerable designers I worked
for, I wouldn't put in that category.

So what is the journey ahead
for us on a personal level?

And how do we think about leadership in
relation to that journey is something

that is very much top of mind.

Kevin: Great.

And before we move on to the others,
could you say a little bit more about

what prompted you to write that article?

Was there a particular trigger or was
it just you started to have a bunch of

conversations and wanted to surface them?

Robert: it's a great question.

and I think it was a bit
of a snowball effect.

In that the kind of work I do.

Given that I've spent about 10 years
building a practice that's very much

focused on social impact and mission
driven work is attractive to some

designers, I think, and design leaders
who want to move in that direction.

and it to others may seem like a
little bit of a kind of rarefied or

sort of specialized area, given that
it doesn't have the same level of

resources that corporate design does.

So people reach out to me typically
when they are having that sort of,

and have for the last, 10 years when
they're having that kind of crisis

of purpose type of conversation.

And what was happening to answer your
question is a lot of people reaching out.

it's, I thought that's what the
conversation was about, and it's

a nice conversation to have.

at the same time, the journey
that I've been on, the challenge

of running a business like this
is really not for everybody.

but I, it started to be
a conversation that was

so that was the first
thing that was going on.

The second thing that was going on that,
and led me to think about writing is

I approached my editor's fast company.

cause I know they're not really they don't
really write about the psychology of the

design business and what's happening.

that's not what they cover.

They cover, tech and business and stuff.

So I actually approached them because
a lot of these new platforms and

leadership networks were emerging.

I was like, there's new, a
little bit of news in there.

something a little bit trendy.

There's a shiny object.

So I approached them
about writing about that.

And so that was the impetus was
like, let's talk about what's

coming out of this moment the kind
of reinvention that's happening.

But then I started to more deliberately.

Go back to a lot of folks in my network
and folks that, that were, I was

referred to, to have deeper interviews
and this other story emerged and it

felt like it needed to be told first.

And so the editor was like, would love
to write about the reinvention stuff.

And that was the second piece, but
let's first just catch people up.

And it was meant to be a paragraph.

Let's catch people up and talk
about the reinvention piece.

And then the catch up
yeah, took off on its own.

And people started to.

To share a lot of reflections,
particularly over the last 10 years, where

my journey has been running in parallel,
I've been spending much more time figuring

out how you get the government of India
to care about design, not, how to, build

the right team for a particular project.

product portfolio at,
Salesforce someplace.

So anyway, that's how it,
that's how it developed.

and, I don't think I really knew
it was going to strike the chord.

It did.

but the conversations that I was having
with people were just, there was obviously

a lot of similarity and a lot of openness
and honestly, a lot of vulnerability

that people were willing to share.

and I really respected that, but I also
felt like maybe some of that out there

would help this process in some way.

So,

Kevin: Fantastic.

Fantastic.

let's cut.

Let's cut back to in a second some of
the response of the article because I

think that would be good to come back to.

But Sean, do you want to go next?

Sean: Yeah, sure.

Thanks.

Good to be able to have this conversation.

So a little bit triggered from Robert's
article, you and I connected and talked

about, hey, is it really this bleak?

Are we really at the end of this cycle?

Is it all doom and gloom?

And, I started to think about this.

that no, we've been through this
before, I've been in the job in the

profession for 30 odd years as well.

And we've seen ups and downs
throughout those 30 years.

And now, I think it more, it's more
important than ever that as designers,

we go back to some of our core values.

And as designers, we are
inherently optimistic.

So let's not forget that we always
look at a brighter potential future.

Whenever we're given the challenge, we
figure out how to solve that challenge.

And this is just one more of
those kinds of challenges that

we've got coming right now.

I spoke earlier this week.

I did a podcast with a graduate,
designer, at Imperial College, London.

And he was saying, are we wasting
our time spending all this money

on being educated in design?

only to find that when we come out,
there's going to be no jobs for us.

And I think I have a fundamental
belief that there will be jobs.

There will be new possibilities for
design to create and deliver impact.

But we do have to reflect, we do have
to take a pause and think about what

we would do differently going forwards.

There's many new variables generative AI.

if you're a CEO today, You're talking a
lot about data and, and AI, it's yet to

be proven that it will deliver value.

So there's a lot of possibilities for
us as designers to go into those areas

and start to look at how are we going
to turn, these tools as they are.

Into new value, but it does mean we
have got to think about our role of

positioning and how we set ourselves
up for success going forwards.

So it's a really good
debate to have right now.

And hopefully during the course
of this hour or so that we've

got here, we can offer some.

Potential ways forward, we've probably
got to dig a hole for us and jump

into it, talk about what went wrong
and what we would do differently.

But then I would like us to think
about how are we going to help

emerging designers and the designers
are out there at the coalface

today come out of this with a more
optimistic view going forwards.

Kevin: That's great.

And could you just, before we get.

Deep into the debate, Sean, can you
just like, for people who don't know

you, just sketch out your background
because obviously our perceptions of

what's happening is partly based on
where we are in the world and partly

based on what kind of sectors we worked
in, also what kind of disciplines.

So I guess, I'm going to summarize
Robert very quickly for him, but I

guess UX stroke service design now
social impact design, but you've got

with, both corporates and third sector.

but Sean, do you just want
to lay out your, where you're

making your observations from?

Sean: Yeah, sure.

Yeah.

So I'm a recovering industrial designer.

That's how I started out.

And, fallen in and out of love with
industrial design, but I'm absolutely

still very much a fan and, still very
much want to practice industrial design.

along the journey as I've worked across
multiple businesses I'm from the UK

originally, graduated in the UK, but
for more than 25 years, I've worked

outside the UK in Italy, Sweden, in
a couple of places, and most recently

the Netherlands, now based in Spain.

I've been fortunate to see how design is
perceived in all these different countries

and I've had I've been fortunate to work
for some great organizations Leading

Philips design as the chief design
officer for 12 years leading experience

design at HP for a period before that at
Electrolux on brand design and strategy

And, some time in between at Assa Abloy,
another big Finnish, Swedish global brand.

I've led big change in big organizations
like Philips as we pivoted from

being a diversified conglomerate into
being a focused health tech company.

I've seen how that change happens from
the highest level in the organization.

And, understood the role design
can and should be playing as you

transform businesses as well.

but at my roots, I'm still
very passionate about design.

I still get excited about, craftsmanship
and quality and the, the craft of design.

get frustrated at times when we do too
much navel gazing and talking about

strategic design issues and want to
get back to thinking about the product

as such, but, I've grown over time
to understand it's a necessary evil.

and we can talk later about, different
approaches that we've taken that I've

seen and that I've adopted over time,
in these different organizations.

kevin_2_10-04-2024_150529: Great.

Thanks, Sean.

Warren, how about you?

to do your introduction?

warren-hutchinson_2_10-04-2024_151915:
Yeah.

Okay.

thanks again.

Yeah.

Thanks for the invitation.

I think, as I said to you before
that when you put up the smoke

signal on this one, I think a lot of
people were waiting for someone to

do that and didn't realize just how
widespread the issue in the debate was.

thanks for inviting me along.

so I'm, Warren Hutchinson.

I'm founder of, Agency called else we work
in digital products and service innovation

based in London, working globally.

and I'm also the chair of the design
business association, which is the

trade association for design in the UK
that champions the economic value of

design for both business and government.

So I'm living with the topic in my
agency life, but also seeing the topic

pan sector in my, DBA role, career wise,
I've worked All sides of the divide.

Really?

I've been in house teams that, yell, which
was yellow pages and universal music.

I've been at large agencies.

I started out 15 years ago, but
I've also worked in a management

consultancy at some point in my career.

So, I've bought and sold design and
I've, worked in house and external teams.

And I guess I've seen quite a bit
change over the last 12 to 18 months.

we define the type of work we
do, which is mostly change and

transformation projects, say helping
businesses identify opportunities

brought about by emerging technologies
or shifts in consumer behavior.

those projects have not vaporized
as such, but there's far fewer

of them as businesses have been
focused more on what we'd call.

incremental innovation or
business as usual phrase.

I can't stand, and have assembled large
teams to focus on quite narrow tranches

of their products and service provision.

So, just seen quite a lot changed
in terms of risk, appetite,

exploration and attitude and, Is
it creates some dissonance for me

because of what's happening with
the emergence of technologies like

AI and web three and various other
things, there's so much to explore.

There's so many legislative drivers
on privacy and trust that we should be

seeking opportunity in data portability.

I'm a bit.

go for a run or sit on the bike a
bit confounded as to why this isn't

one of the busiest periods we've
ever experienced, to be honest.

So something's, deeply wrong.

and while I'm optimistic, there's
always a role for what we do, how we

think, how we oxygenate conversations
in our client organizations, using

design as a practice to make things
that are intangible, tangible, There's

so many things that are broken.

public services, the high street,
sustainability, inclusivity,

privacy, trust, there has to be,
there has to be a role for us.

I just, I'm just hoping this is a very
fallow period where there's a bit of.

downbeat attitude on design efficacy
that can be, quickly picked up again.

that's my interest in it.

seeing it across membership.

kevin_2_10-04-2024_150529: the
kind of the symptoms, if you

like, of what we mean here.

and I'm just going to
summarize there, Warren.

So you basically, it seems to me that
you're basically saying it's, is.

primarily driven by the economic downturn.

Is that what you're saying?

Or is there more to it than that?

But

warren-hutchinson_2_10-04-2024_151915:
I think there's a lot to it, economic

downturn, I think design in some, so
my comments are coming more from a

kind of digital service, Territory.

the economic downturn, I think we're
like more of a lagging indicator.

one of our biggest clients for the
last eight years is, is in financial

services and they've had a hell of a
time in the last couple of years, just

sort of economic climate, and it gets
to a point, 12, 18 months later where

they stop investing in certain types
of projects as they're restructuring

and doubling down on different things.

So economic drive is certainly one.

there's post COVID work adjustments,
I think are important to consider

because the nature of creative
practice, how we work together, how

productive we are, how connected we
are on the value creation of our work.

I think that's taken a bit of a hit.

there is no doubt an effect from, you
know, the commoditization of what we

do, design being design thinking has got
fans and it's got detractors, but, I was

all for the black boxing what we do, but
when it's reductive to the point where

people think a workshop with post its is a
design exercise, that's really, damaging.

there's a whole bunch
of things really for me.

short termism, I think design
education's in trouble.

We're not producing enough,
designers from it, from education.

and so all of these things feel
like a bit of a perfect storm.

kevin_2_10-04-2024_150529: in terms
of how you, when you're saying

you're feeling it, in your, both your
business and through the DBA, is that

essentially a reduction in business?

Warren: Yeah.

Yeah, business is slow.

And everyone I talk to says the
same thing that, there's less of

the type of work they're used to.

the type of work that is around for them,
decision making is just really slow.

yeah, it feels pretty sharp actually.

I know a lot of people having a really
rough time and then on our, for our

clients, three of our largest clients
in the last couple of years, we've

all had significant restructurings,
so there's pressures there as well,

which means people are changing
roles and, institutional knowledge is

moving around and the value of things
that have been built up dissipates.

It's yeah, bit of a perfect storm.

I think.

Kevin: about, you Sean, just in terms
of that we can get onto optimistic

and roots out of it in a second, but
I think you do recognize that, the

definition of a doldrum is a temporary
calm, So this isn't, is long term,

the death of design discussion.

This is we go through, developments,
where there's boom times and

there's corrections, you could say.

what do you observe in terms of both
your, what you've seen yourself or

what you've heard from your contacts
about what are the symptoms beyond

consultancies having, a rough time?

what other, things are you picking up?

Sean: No, I think Warren touched on it
there when he spoke about the difficulties

that clients or his clients are having.

and I've seen it firsthand being on the
kind of executive leadership team at a

large corporation, and I'm witnessing it
now as an advisor to a couple of CEOs who

are in banking, finance and health care.

I think post pandemic, let's put the
blame a little bit on the pandemic.

we had some industries really booming and
Getting a lot of during that time But I

think the majority really struggled and
then coming out of the pandemic they found

a lot of difficulties in their markets,
consumer confidence is down, geopolitical

issues getting in the way of their
sales, cost of goods, fuel prices, energy

crisis, all sorts of different things
now weighing on their balance sheet.

course the CEO in any of these
large corporations, his first

duty is to his shareholders.

like it or not, that is the
way these businesses are run.

And of course, what
they've got to do is then.

Manage within the
constraints that they've got.

So if they've got a shrinking sales
sheet, and sales funnel, they're going

to have to proportionally reduce the
cost in the business as well, which

means layoffs, perhaps, reducing their
innovation pipeline or even, getting

rid of or making some hard choices
around the innovation projects that

they're funding, which ultimately will
impact on the design budgets as well.

I'm seeing this, as I said, both,
through the eyes of CEOs, and there, I'm

trying to advocate for an alternative
way of looking at this, problem,

looking for opportunities for growth.

In amongst all of these challenges,
taking a human centered approach to it.

applying a bit of social intelligence
and empathy to the markets in order to

try and find new growth possibilities,
perhaps outside of their existing markets.

but I'm also seeing it through work.

I do, for instance, with design
for good, design for good.

we have, 15 plus corporate
design partners now.

Everybody from PepsiCo to Airbus,
Lidl, all sorts of different

companies, Lixil, sorry.

and every one of the design leaders in
those organizations has come back and

said, struggling to continue the funding
at the level that we've committed to.

How can we, defer payments
or stretch payments?

because their budgets are under pressure.

now they they find ways these
design leaders are creative.

They find ways of continuing the
dialogue, but nevertheless, every single

business, whether it's a regional bank
in South America or South Africa, or

some of the largest FMCG companies
in the world, every one of them has

budget reduction targets this year.

It's universal.

it's across industries.

it's across every vertical you can think
of from automotive to pharmaceutical

to healthcare to, food stuffs.

Every one of them is
under pressure right now.

yes, there is a
fundamental reset going on.

At a business level at a
corporate enterprise level.

And naturally that will impact the amount
of money available, and being attributed

to spending on design projects as well.

Kevin: just on that.

That topic Sean, it's a point I made
in my recent article that design

boomed the teeth of the last big
recession after the 2008 crisis.

how do you explain that, that the
design was seen as a growth solution,

a bounce back solution 2008?

Why isn't it now?

Sean: I think it will.

but we've got a different set
of conditions around us right

now in terms of product as well.

If you go back to.

I was just landing in
California in HP in 2008.

my first year there was pretty horrible.

first job I got was cut
the budget, lose people.

I thought, why the hell have
you hired me if my first job

is to reduce, but thankfully a
little bit of a nice, aside here.

We were selling printers, and
ink, and one of the biggest,

consumers of ink, was Apple users.

Steve Jobs actually said to our CEO
at the time, Mark Hurd, Hey, the whole

experience of using a printer is archaic.

Your products suck, your experience
sucks, I'm going to take printing

out of the operating system.

And, of course this was worth billions
and billions in revenue to HP at the time.

So we got summoned to a come to
Jesus meeting in Capitino to figure

out what was wrong with the printing
experience through Steve's job size.

And what he said to us
was, don't look at me.

It's the users that are giving this
feedback and you need to go connect

again with your users and develop a
better experience for those users.

that's normal.

That's what we would just naturally do.

Back then, the business
didn't recognize that need.

Thankfully, we were able to do it.

We created something called AirPrint.

Every printer was
connected to the internet.

This was the first round
of the IoT devices.

that was the start of then understanding
the need for a human centered

design approach in technology.

That allowed us to then scale,
the business from there.

And I think right now the difference is
you've got a lot of product management,

in powerful positions in digital
companies, in software and application

companies, and they are very good at
focusing on the technical attributes of

the products that they're developing.

And the designers in some way have
become very subservient to these,

technicians, to these product managers.

where we've got to reinforce the
need is that human perspective.

What is it like to actually live with this
device live with this software live with

this application on a day to day basis?

And connect the human interface into
this as well And that's what we're good

at but we've got to remind people again.

We've got to reinforce that this is a
little bit the danger and I've been guilty

of this as well at Philips, we moved
a lot of designers into the business

units so that they were closer to the
businesses and not sitting centrally

because we felt that was important.

They need to be in the heat of the battle,
understanding customers, understanding

constraints, and being able to work in
a more real time agile and lean manner.

But in doing that, what we've
done in accidentally is, Move

design down the value chain.

So they were now responding
real time to attributes, which

product managers were filtering.

And so you lose value in that equation.

So we've got to really reinforce the
role of design, also leading product

defining product and identifying product
opportunities based on human needs.

And I think if we can do that and show it
brings value as we did back in the day in

HP with Steve Jobs and Apple, then I think
we can climb back up the value chain.

Robert: Great.

And Robert, what, how
about your perspective

squadcaster-e4ad_1_10-04-2024_100529:
partly dsign for purposes of this

conversation, I'm going to take a slightly
alternate point of view and I'm going

to key off of that last statement about
moving up the value chain and I think

and come back to that question, right?

Has someone who Join frog and started
building a product team in 2001

on the heels of, and in the midst
of the last down cycle and work

through, the 2008 cycle and build out.

a couple of thoughts here.

I think that one of the things that was
going on throughout that journey was

an anchoring on product as the vehicle
and embedding design as a critical

central part of that product endeavor.

And so coming back to where we just
left off, I actually think to move

up the value chain, we're going to
have to let go a little bit of that

product based definition and think
about design in terms of systems.

about design in terms of
culture and processes.

If we want to move up that value
chain there, it's not to say that

there isn't an opportunity as
investment and product more out of

this cycle and particularly changes.

Based on newer paradigms for product
development that are going to be a,

an obvious outcome out of AI, they may
not be the focus of what the ultimate

impact of AI is across society, across
business, but certainly they're going to

transform the way products and already
transform the way products are developed.

And I think that while that will create
opportunity coming back to points that

were made to ensure that the initial
portfolios of products that come out

of and build on these new paradigms.

Have a real value proposition,
have your customers, like there

were big gaps to fill there.

But I think if we truly want to move
up the food chain, we're going to

have to think about design and in a
little bit of a post product landscape.

not that products won't continue to be
generated, but the way they're generated,

the craft around them, how they're
matched and brought into the market,

which needs they're serving, all of that
is going to become a systems problem,

not a product problem, in my opinion.

And so for that reason, I feel
like there are two conversations

happening in the rooms that I'm in
one conversation is, we've just got to

articulate our value proposition better.

We just got to wait until these
technologies start to run into which

they are a lack of use and adoption.

And then that product value
proposition is going to be central

again, and we'll ride that.

We'll ride that, that, vehicle
and be back in a central position.

And I think there's an element of that,
but I actually, yeah, I would push us

to think about what it means to be a
designer in a post product world, a world

in which that's not the central paradigm
for creating value with customers.

Is

Kevin: I'm sure the other two want to jump
in, but I'm going to get in there first.

when you, you say it's letting go of
products and moving more, to systems

design, what, why is that an either or
why can't it be and why can't Design

expand into, system design, but also be
making a big impact at the product level.

that a fair question?

And obviously this is meant to
be a provocative discussion.

I don't think that products
are going to be irrelevant.

But I think that if we're framing
our role into some degree of our

natural inclination of us as a
generation of leadership back to

some comments, very personal comments
that Sean made is to maintain that

connection to craft and to product.

I think those things can be a little
bit intention because I think there's

a letting go and I guess drawing on my
own personal experience in the work that

I do again, mostly in the 3rd sector.

Very few of my clients have
strong product capabilities.

few of the things we design come to
market as a finished product in the way

we might like, and I'm sure, Sean, you're
learning this with Design for Good.

what's on paper, what you model,
what you even test is going to be a

constant work in progress in the market.

And for the designers, again, very
personal, the diverse designers

on our team, there's a letting
go process that can be hard.

There aren't a lot of beautiful things in
their portfolios now because these things

are constantly evolving and changing.

But at the same time in that, like that
letting go, you're starting to recognize

there are all these different touch points
in the system where these products need

to create a meaningful connection where
people need to be able to engage and

the products need to adapt and change.

And that.

does create a little bit of attention
from a perspective of control and

definition, which I think is very core
to not just how we've sold design as

a value proposition, but also what
designers pride and belief is driven from.

so it comes back a bit
to education as well.

so I think there was a tension there.

It's not an either or, but I do
think there's a tension there.

I think there's a backfilling of what it
means to really think about your role.

As someone who is shaping systems,
thinking about products really is

just the manifestations of how a
system works and to lean in and more

fundamentally look at, what is going

warren-hutchinson_2_10-04-2024_151915:
Yeah, so

squadcaster-e4ad_1_10-04-2024_100529:
10, 20 percent of that.

I

kevin_2_10-04-2024_150529:
Who wants to respond to that?

Sean: I can make a start Warren.

yeah, so you're right.

Product is only one component in
those systems, but it's an important

element of that, of course.

I'm just thinking again, coming back to
the role of the heads of design, the chief

design officer, part of that role, and
one of the reasons perhaps it's been under

pressure is, You have to think beyond
those delivery of an individual product.

You have to think about the
broader system, the ecosystem.

And for instance, we tended to get
pushed into pigeonholes in terms

of what design can do and deliver.

so UX user experience, that's
what you guys are good at.

That's what we're gonna ask you to do.

Focus on Oh, but by the way, our
customers, our experience is not good.

okay, we broaden our horizons.

We start thinking about the customer
experience, but you very quickly

start to appreciate that good customer
experience is not only down to a good

user experience, it is also determined
by our own employee experience.

And this then as a head of design,
as a chief design officer, broadens

your horizon to stop only focusing on.

producing great products, but thinking
about the people who are going to

service those products, the people who
are selling those products, the people

who are using those products every day,
how those systems stack up over time.

thinking about that holistic experience,
so end to end, is really the role

that a head of design would think.

Now, my concern, as you see more
and more heads of design or chief

design officer roles disappear is
who's stitching that all together?

what you're going to end up with is
very broken experiences, if we're

not careful, where individual project
managers are taking care of individual

deliveries across the value chain, but
who's shouting out and speaking up on

behalf of the end user of the experience
that's generated across the system.

we do need system thinking, but I
also think we need advocates inside

companies who can think end to end
and stitch these experiences together.

Kevin: Warren.

warren-hutchinson_2_10-04-2024_151915:
much to say, really.

maybe it's a bit, to do with the area
of which in which we practice our work,

but quite often where helping businesses
launch new products or service lines.

So there's often.

A consideration in our work for this
sort of wider gamma of problems that

you need to mitigate and navigate in
order for a product or service to exist.

So working with a, a private bank
launching a digital only investment

platform, historically, this bank is high
touch personal service and you create a

wholly digital platform that warrants, new
capabilities and structures and practices.

And we quite often come up
against these moments where.

Organizational design is needed.

Capabilities are needed to be identified.

and it leads me to be thinking about the
sort of the role for design with a big

D shall I say, because there's this, you
say the word design and there's a whole

load of identity crisis challenges there.

And people think it's the
beautification of things rather

than, how we're discussing now.

we like to think about if there's
an opportunity for a business to

capitalize on a, a market change or
an emerging technology, our role as

designers is first to help bring some
awareness to that person who might be

a, the sort of figurative change agent
in a particular client organization,

they'll have an itch to scratch and we
can help them work out whether that,

Itch is a threat or an opportunity.

We can go through consensus
forming activities that bring some

tangibility to that exploration.

so someone starts with an
inkling that we should be doing

something in a particular space.

And design can corral that and it can help
to build a bit of consensus and momentum.

There's an opportunity here to explore.

And once that's explored.

You can assess your
capabilities to deliver it.

Have we got the kit that we need to
deliver this products and service to

maintain it, to deal with customers,
to manage the data and so on.

and once you have a view of that, the
organization can answer the question,

do we have the appetite for this?

So I'm just talking about, new
products and service creation

and the role design can play in
stitching all those things together.

and not existing, downstream at the point
where, you know, satisfying, requirements

and feature requests as part of a, an
agile delivery, long held the belief that,

I used the phrase earlier, I think, that
design can oxygenate the conversation.

but those businesses or those
practitioners that have the ability to

navigate those stages of change, to.

To facilitate things that
are obscure and ambiguous and

unknown, our natural playground.

And let's be honest as
well, this stuff's exciting.

However, there is a, there is an
image problem or a naming problem.

that, I don't want to get into the define
the damn thing kind of conversation.

You say design and people think certain
things in certain organizations,

and that's a limiting factor.

So sometimes we've talked
about, do we just drop the word?

is it in the way for us sometimes?

but I think the field of play is vast.

Kevin: do you want to
respond to any of that?

squadcaster-e4ad_1_10-04-2024_100529:
mean, I think we were all sitting

in places from our own experience,
and I think there's actually

a fair amount of alignment.

Across, we're talking about,
at least in terms of the role

warren-hutchinson_2_10-04-2024_151915: you

squadcaster-e4ad_1_10-04-2024_100529:
designers need to work in.

and the changing tool set that
they're working with and the

changing problems they're working on.

And I think we like to see it as a
continuum coming back to the point.

I don't know if it was Sean you
made about students asking like,

why am I even studying this?

Why am I even learning this?

and I guess that's a place where
I don't personally, I see a

transition happening and I don't
know what exactly it looks like.

I think that there are great models
out there for design leadership

and the kind of systems focused
design leadership and the kind of

translational work and orchestration
work that, Warren was talking about.

does that mean that we need to,
that, that people who are involved

at in building and shaping, the
day to day work of design, is their

future being on a journey towards it?

Acquiring those leadership skills and are
they meant to be doing a small little bit

of it in everything they do and thinking
about all the systems and all the layers

and everything they do, or is there both
a letting go at a leadership level, but

also a refactoring happening in terms of
what and how designers execute work and,

collaborate is, maybe in a bit of, stage
and a lot of the most impactful, for

example, a lot of it sounds very abstract.

A lot of most impactful design leaders
that I think are out there, they're

orchestrating, influencing things
that are happening all across an

organization, not just a design team.

People are now just joining design
teams and they're both confused.

And to some degree, I think the work
they're doing is it doesn't feel

very creative in a lot of cases.

The problems and the leadership
challenges, the transformation

challenges are, and I think, Kevin,
this is very present in the way

you talk about what you see ahead.

It's very present at that level.

Are we trying to just make them
into mini versions of that so that

they can traverse all that at a
small level in their day to day?

Or is there something else that, the
day to day challenges that designers

need to solve and work on the day to
day role they play is a little bit

disconnected from that bigger idea?

Yeah.

and there are fields where
that's always been true.

Look at architecture.

Architecture always function that way.

There's a couple of big thinkers
orchestrating a lot of resources

thinking in a very systemic way.

And then there are a
lot of people executing.

they don't really, their job isn't a mini
transformation innovation job, their job

is helping to instrument a lot of things.

warren-hutchinson_2_10-04-2024_151915:
Okay.

Okay.

kevin_2_10-04-2024_150529: I think
let's start looking towards the future

and the, the roots out of the doldrums.

So I think just really level summary of.

one of the threads of what you've
been talking about, Robert, is that,

and it's something that I've very
much tracked in my career is that,

there was the design used to be
very much focused on the product.

And then maybe in the, maybe 20
years ago, that expanded into more

product strategy and thinking about
not just the what, but the why.

And then I guess over the last sort
of 10 years, there's been that those

two things are still happening.

there's been more of a focus on design
or, certain parts of the design function

starting to influence the organization,
looking at transformation projects

and, more systemic type of challenges.

is that what you're?

Is that what you see more design
leaders moving towards as I mean,

your, your article was basically
saying, you know, there's a lot

less career opportunities for design
leaders this year than there were.

five years ago, are you seeing,
design leaders switching to

more interest in those sort of
change transformation type work?

Robert: I don't want to put
people words in people's mouths.

The one that's the ones that I see that
are continuing to hold very senior roles.

Many of them are working in
a more cross cutting way.

And holding roles that have a
don't just have a design mandate.

That's where I see folks today
who I think are sustaining those

very senior executive roles.

That's the first thing I see.

The second thing I heard, and I maybe
heard is a better word than see, is that

designers who never maybe got quite up
to that CDO level, but, I've had a 10, 15

year run, have played senior roles inside
companies, maybe in consultancies as well.

Many of them that I talked to are.

Using this time, particularly if
they're not in a role today to acquire

more cross cutting skill sets, whether
it's in scenario planning and strategy

skill sets, whether it's in technology
skill sets, and setting themselves

up for what they think is the future.

better, more sustainable value proposition
that might again come back to a little

bit what you've written about, Kevin,
in terms of the sort of innovation

consultant, like how do you bring
innovation and creative thinking across

a lot of different, opportunity spaces
inside of a company, whether they're

internally focused or externally.

So I do see a bunch of people doing that,
and in that sense, both diversifying

their skillset, also trying to figure
out the things that the doors that

opened for them the last 10, 15 years,
where they felt they had an impact.

how do they better articulate
that piece of impact?

And again, for some, that's much
more around, might be more around

futuring and scenario planning.

For others, it might be much more
around talent and leadership.

there's some element, I think, of the
portfolio of things that, that they

touched on and maybe impacted that
they're now leaning much more into.

as part of that, while they still
consider themselves creatives

and designers, they're Yeah.

They're setting themselves up with
a, with a more differentiated and

often quote unquote strategic kind
of value proposition or skill set

in terms of where they're going.

And some of that means that they can
also pick up more easily this kind

of fractional or, external work.

So those are probably the two things
I see from the senior kind of cohort.

The question I was just asking is is
that a pull through for more, more Early

stage designers, or are they going to
end up on a different journey where the,

by the time they get into leadership
roles, the world's going to be different

and not these big translation trans
translational synthetic roles that we

keep talking about, comfort and ambiguity
translation, that's when I go to schools.

That's what I hear them talking about.

It's like trying to academically
define what design can do.

But.

Yeah, that's what I'm asking myself.

Will their version of leadership as this
cycle renews have a very different model?

Kevin: And can I just ask before I
ask the same question to the others,

the P and I know this is weak signals
and it's probably a very small sample

you're talking about, but, are these
leaders still in the design function?

Or are they operating
elsewhere in organizations?

Robert: the, some of the leaders
that, that I've spoken to, I think

that partly because I think maybe
Sean talked about this a bit.

There are a lot of cases where
design functions have gotten more

integrated across other functions.

They're not sitting as a separate P& L.

And we've been through
a few cycles of that.

I think a lot of them are where they
find a solid ground, it's often not just

within a design, a central design function
or a even in a role that's, defined by

design as the main capability, so they're
in a digital transformation function or

they're in digital product function and
they've just elevated their skill set.

They bring a lot of experience, a human
centered gender approach to that impact.

Both internal employees and things
that others have talked about as

well as the success in the market.

But yeah, that's what I'm seeing And
I think that's a some people I think

for some people that's super empowering
and I think really opens things up So

I do think that there's a fair amount
of that going on For people who you

know for whom in particular like this
kind of corporate career track is

Critical to how they see their future.

Kevin: Great, thanks.

What about other, stories from either
Warren or Sean, about, there can be weak

signals, there can be a sample of one, but
any, any things that you've seen or heard

or experienced that, for you offer a.

an interesting route forward for maybe
not the whole discipline, certain

routes out, of the current calm

warren-hutchinson_2_10-04-2024_151915:
I think there's something everybody

should be considering no matter
what practice or side of the kind of

client agency, line they might sit.

And that's to help people help their
organizations, their, collaborators

and cohort better understands.

the value that, good design brings, we've
touched a bit on it in this conversation,

but for me, still too much conversation
in, on LinkedIn and in the press about

what things look like, as opposed to
why they work, why they're effective,

why they've shifted behavior positively.

I know there's a lot of
that, but for me, not enough.

Because just being more outcomes
focused, I think is fundamental

to proving the value of your work,
whatever the organizational structure

or pace of innovation, being able
to point out, problem solved and the

outcome delivered is really important.

And I think for me, just anecdotally,
too many people, too many businesses,

practitioners aren't prepared.

To make themselves accountable
for that commercial performance.

And some of these things aren't,
hard sort of business outcomes.

We could be talking about soft things
like alignment and consensus around

probing an idea or the use of a
technology or possible exploitation of a.

emerging piece of legislation,
you can good design.

we'll save on OPEX and CAPEX and
grow revenue and drive CSAT and all

those kinds of things that they're
easy to measure and point out, to

prove and surely we're better at.

Being able to track behavioral
outcomes of the things, products

and services we create as well.

So I think this is the good work that
can start immediately while we're

in the doldrums, and I even think
retrospectively it's possible to look

at projects that, we've been doing over
the last 12, 18, 24 months and say,

what was the commercial value of that?

that's good work that just needs
to happen and should happen

continually going forward, I think.

kevin_2_10-04-2024_150529: Sean, have

warren-hutchinson_2_10-04-2024_151915:
yeah.

kevin_2_10-04-2024_150529:
any, any promising indicators?

squadcaster-h9gg_1_10-04-2024_160529:
I mean my own experience and this is

bittersweet was Whilst at phillips, as
a chief design officer The CEO was my

biggest advocate, so he had my back.

He was looking all the time
for how I could create more

value and have bigger impact.

And along that journey, seven, eight
years ago, he saw the way we were

interacting with the customers and
the customers in this case were large

healthcare providers, hospitals and
hospital systems around the world.

nothing more than a human centered
design thinking approach to unlocking

the challenges and issues that existed on
the ground in these healthcare systems,

and then co creating solutions to that,
obviously based on Philips services

and products in order to sell more.

And he recognized very clearly
that design was having a huge

impact on the sales funnel here.

what happened was he gave me the
responsibility to create a new

business unit called Healthcare
Transformation Services with a P&

L, with a target, with a budget.

And that was a huge challenge.

I didn't let go of my other role,
Chief Design Officer, but I had to

now have P& L responsibility, General
Manager accountability to run.

this transformation services unit.

Again, very difficult to make money
in selling services in that context.

But what he recognized very early
on, and Harvard Business School have

written case studies about this.

And I'm worked with the, the Dean of
Harvard to talk about this is We had

an impact on the PNL of the whole
corporation, through influence revenue

by not only selling our hours as a
consultant, but by selling equipment

and services that Phillips would
provide into these systems, which

then came with an additional target.

So not only do you have to hit
your own PNL, But you've also

got to enable, influence revenue
for the other business units who

would also now come with targets.

So very quickly you're managing a multi
dimensional spreadsheet with your own

P& L, costs and income, sales funnel,
but also the influence revenue you're

going to deliver to the respective
business units who are also selling in.

So a complex situation.

Now, Nothing in my education
equipped me to do that.

I had to very quickly assemble a team
around me who knew what they were doing.

and then guess what?

It wasn't all designers.

But along that journey, and this is
why I still have hope, my designers,

the design leaders, stepped up and
really embraced this and understood

the value they could create.

Now, unfortunately, in this latest
downturn, many of them will let go, but

what I'm really happy to see is they've
all landed inside hospitals, inside

hospital systems, and they're continuing
the work they did, and they found one

another again, and now they've formed
consortiums to drive human centered design

approaches to impact positive outcomes for
patients and, uh, help improve access to

health care and lower the cost of care.

So they're doing that work.

They're free now of having to work for one
corporate, paymaster, and they're able to

leverage a complete portfolio of skills
and, capabilities to bring that to bear.

So created something it's continued.

It's in a different format now, but
I'm super excited to see that they're

driving change across healthcare systems,
based on the work that we started.

Kevin: I think there's a nice link there
with that story and what Robert was

talking about, the shifts of more systems
design, because what one of the, I've

seen that with quite a few clients where
they're selling a complicated set of

services or complicated, very customizable
products or whatever it is, design is

used to help the client understands

kevin_2_10-04-2024_150529: and how best
to configure and all the rest of it.

the design.

into it's both system design or system
specification or something like that,

but as part of the sales process in
certain cases, but obviously not in all.

Warren: You make me think of a sort
of a problem we give ourselves there

because the, we keep shifting the
goalposts as an industry, even in, in,

I started off as a product designer
and then I became a web designer and

interaction designer, then UX, then
CX and service design, then now we're

systems design and various other things.

it's no wonder we create a bit
of a challenge with what type of.

design am I buying?

What kind of thing am I getting?

How pervasive is the
problem, going to be solved?

What angles is the work
going to, happen from?

And it's this sort of continual
shape shifting definition I find,

part of the problem that we have.

If you look at what is buying design from
the, through the eyes of the purchaser and

the various types, labels, the overlaps
between product design agencies that do

digital brand agencies that do digital
specialist, innovation consultancies,

management consultancies, large networks,
ad networks, you know, it's a hell

of a thing to try and navigate and,
we just keep adding to the challenge

as well, the problem with lots of
different definitions, lots of different

labels, and it's just a lot of noise.

Sean: think you've hit on something
there but, have we made a rod for our own

back with all this hyper specialization?

I don't know what the job catalog looks
like in the average corporate design team

now, but I know when I was, last looked at
it at Philips, 40 different specialties.

Which is crazy.

And all under the banner of, designer.

And, I think, there's a number of books
flying up, doing the rounds at the moment

about the rise of the generalist again.

And I think that's an important
thing to, to consider.

when you and I graduated, we had to turn
our hand to multiple disciplines and

maybe we're good at some and less good
at others, but we pulled it together.

And I think there is a need
again to have more generalists.

can appreciate the craft of individual
specialties, and really get good outcomes,

drive better outcomes for people as well.

squadcaster-e4ad_1_10-04-2024_100529: to,

kevin_2_10-04-2024_150529: Robert, do
you have any, comments on, particularly

what the people you talked about
earlier that are taking these new

roles, what do they call themselves?

what the role titles you sing?

Do you think, what's
your thoughts on that?

The whole, specialization
versus what we call ourselves.

Robert: yeah, I'll come back to it.

But first, I do want to respond to a
couple of things that have come up.

First, Sean, your story.

folks.

given not surprising, given my
own journey, but your story about

folks moving into health systems,
just super inspiring to me.

and I think is a very hopeful
picture of the future.

I'd like to see and hopefully how more
designers will find meaning in their work.

And I'll come back around,
Kevin to the question.

Maybe I might not address it.

Well, so feel free to.

Press me on it.

You know what?

And I'm thinking about this generalist
idea because I'm probably similar vintage

to you guys, and that worked for a while
as an idea as a frame, the thing I think

about when I hear the story you told,
particularly someone who's worked a

lot in health systems, is I think what
matters now is that the, organizations,

communities and populations you're working
with want to look across the table and

feel like you have some experience,
is Being in their shoes, dealing with

and understanding the systems and
structures that they must work within.

And I think if you can look across the
table and they see that recognition,

there's a lot of space for trust
and a lot of space as a designer to

then grow and evolve into different
roles, take on different things.

And I think this, particularly I know
in a health system, if you've been in

Philips and you've learned some hard
skills, if you really try to apply those

to solving problems for health system and
really heard about what's hard about that.

Not what's hard about coming
up with a brilliant idea, but

what's hard about making that
implementation and work happen.

If you're sitting across the table
now as part of that team inside that

health system, you have credibility.

And that credibility when paired
with generalism is powerful.

When you show up as a generalist,
which I think we did 10, 15 years ago

when a lot of young designers thought
they could do a year or two at IDEO

or someplace else and show up as a
generalist without that credibility.

It wasn't, a viable, proposition.

the first thing that I think
is interesting is where do

you have that credibility?

Where are you building
that base of knowledge?

and that base of experience, and some
of that just takes time, which is a

conversation I have a lot with our team.

so I think that's interesting.

And the second thing is,
what are you building?

let's say, and I may put
this back to you, Sean.

say some of these folks are quite
successful, and they might be successful

in a large health system has a lot of
resources, a big place, employs a lot of

people, does a lot of things every day.

But very few health systems.

Are now or maybe ever going to
build a large dedicated design team.

They're not going to call it that.

They're not going to build it that way.

They're going to build it differently.

a lot of that is, and this is an
area I'm passionate about, I've seen

amazing things happen in health.

I'll keep going.

Kind of mining that vein training
nurses training doctors like there

are practitioners in a health
system that can learn and take on

and grow and find more frankly job
satisfaction with complimentary

design skills than they do today.

And so you might find yourself
that you're having a scale of

impact across a health system.

Doing the kind of systems change
work that, that I think I was

trying to articulate theoretically,
you're doing that in practice,

but the end of the day, you're not
going to be a chief design officer.

You're not going to build
a team of 40 designers.

that's not ultimately
we're not recreating.

In the next cycle, what, maybe
what happened in this cycle?

And I think that's actually a very, to me,
a very positive and promising result, but

it requires a bit more entrepreneurialism.

It requires specialization in a different
sense, not in the skillset sense, but I

think in the problem spaces you want to
work on and the types of organizations

you want to build credibility in.

pairing those two things and thinking
about how you do that today, I think is

not always an easy journey for younger
mid career designers, where I think

for a while they thought just having.

A certain scale and a certain
title somewhere was going to

open every door they needed.

I think maybe that was actually like
a more unusual state for the design

industry than where we are now.

kevin_2_10-04-2024_150529: Very good.

we should start wrapping up.

Warren, any sort of parting
thoughts on this topic?

warren-hutchinson_2_10-04-2024_151915:
Uh, the thing I hold dear and, cling to

when we're ruminating on going through a
period of perceived, low worth or value

or doldrums, however you want to describe
it is, there's so many things that warrant

the design skillset, in order to fix them.

you just say the AI alone,
sorry to finish on that, but.

When I was at South by Southwest this
year, John Mader held up a diagram that

kind of really made me feel quite excited
about the future for our industry.

And it was, is an illustration
from an article on, on their

website called the Turing Trap.

And it had a, three rectangles, one
rectangle represented The percentage of

tasks that AI can do for humans or take
from humans, depending on how you see it.

So proportionally think like
a playing card kind of format.

And then behind that about five
or six times larger was a square

that represent the range of
tasks that only humans could do.

And of course, all the discourse has
been how much of the former overlaps

the latter with a view to, being
replaced and everything like that.

But behind that, there was a, an
incredibly large rectangle, 10, 15

times the size of the second one,
which represented the potential

of human and AI collaboration.

I just really excited about design's
role in kind of translating AI as

a material, as a capability into a
whole range of products and services.

We know the challenges with bias and some
of the other unforeseen kind of, problems

that, that exists with the technology,
but it's It's always been our charge

to help smooth that out and land it.

So, I'm really excited by that.

and in many ways, this feels to me,
I left, university late nineties

as a product designer, walking
into the emergence of digital.

And I could see the potential and felt
really excited and I could see the role.

I played in that, it's a trained
product designer walking into

a technology space and bringing
human centered design practice to

it, and have made a career of it.

So, I think that's really exciting.

The potentials is fast.

and along with, bioengineering and
connectivity of literally everything.

there's, a hell of a moment
to be a designer, I think.

so we might be going through a bit of a
change in how we operate and the models

that we have, we're needed more than ever.

I think

Kevin: one way of looking at that is that,
the 20th century designers were focused on

the designing the human machine interface.

what we might see this century is,
designing the human machine interlace,

where we redesign things to, work
with, with AI, hopefully great things.

Sean, parting thoughts from you

Sean: Maybe just building on the AI
topic for a moment, I've spent many

years now designing health systems
and software, trying to integrate

AI into workflows trying to convince
radiologists, for instance, that AI is

going to take away the mundane task and
make it life easier for them so they

can focus on the really important stuff.

But all too often, what we ended up
creating was the equivalent of the little

word which just annoyingly pops up just
when you don't need it, just breaks into

your thought pattern, and doesn't really
track with your, with their processes.

We fixed that in the end, we got there,
but, Now I'm also trying to work with

digital pathology and pathologists trying
to integrate AI into their workflows.

you look at it with a lot of skepticism.

Say, why don't they get it?

why is it so hard to help them
understand that this is going

to make their lives easier?

But then you think about AI in
our context, in our profession,

and we're just as resistive to it.

we've got to find ways of integrating AI.

Into the creative process in a way that
enhances the human, creative process

and doesn't disturb our thinking.

So that's one thought.

The other point was, I just want to
make the point that I think we're

also suffering right now because
the technology sector in particular

bought in too heavily into design,
we saw IBM and, AWS and Salesforce

and Microsoft and everybody hiring
literally designers in their thousands.

And maybe it was because of
this, specialist, demarcation

of design disciplines.

But I don't think adding volume of
design to Robert's point about the

hospitals, they're not going to
build huge design organizations.

think probably what we're going to
see emerging out of this is a little

bit more than model I had at HP,
to be honest, which was a hybrid.

Great.

core internal team who understood the way
things get done and the way things can

be delivered Who understand the brand and
understand how the organization works?

And then using the very best agencies
in the world to bring their specialist

knowledge and unimpaired Creative
freedom into the mix and that hybrid

of internal external I think is
where the future is going to be

kevin_2_10-04-2024_150529: and

any final thoughts before we wrap?

Robert: share a couple.

You can decide if they make it
off the cutting room floor or not.

But, the 1st thing is having written
some things early in the year.

I've really pivoted my perspective
and I think the way to summarize

that is, the idea was behind.

I think some of those articles was.

there was a sort of a golden era for
design and now we're in the doldrums

to use your word in a correction.

and we want to get back to that state.

and we've got to make a business, better
business case where we've got to do some

of the things that Sean was talking about.

The pivot to me is thinking about
the last 10 years as an aberration.

things come around every 20, 30 years
where design is able to bring together

and galvanize resources and a vision
for how we can drive change that

kind of becomes very consolidated.

And to some degree limiting, it's a very,
it was a more unified period of design

than I think we normally see in terms of
what was fundamentally driving growth,

what was fundamentally shaping careers.

And I hear it in both of you guys, like
you found your way, like into UX, into

software, things that I don't think
probably were where you started in terms

of the building blocks of your work.

And if We look at it that way
and we appreciate what we've

learned from that journey.

Maybe the goal is not to recreate that.

Maybe the steady state for design
now is more pluralistic, more

entrepreneurial, people will find and
craft different ways of shaping and

using the learnings the skills they've
developed to drive change and impact

in many different places, whether
it's health systems or other places.

And maybe that's great.

And maybe that, doesn't stack hands.

some of the same visibility, it may
not suck hands into some of the same

roles, but it may also be just, uh, um,

stimulating, rewarding state for our
industry, for many people's practices.

so I'm trying to sit with that and
not think, how do I get out of this?

But what do we enjoy about where we are?

Kevin: Excellent.

And just, wrap up with, a
phrase that I really like.

from a few minutes ago when you made
the point that in the new cycle, the

next cycle, not trying to recreate
what we had in the last cycle.

I think that's a really good
way of thinking about the

future, but thanks Robert.

Thanks Warren.

Thanks Sean for a
fascinating conversation.

and great to have you on.

I hope you found that
as interesting as I did.

The links to the articles mentioned
are in the show notes, and I'm

sure we'll return to some of
these themes in future episodes.