Product Powwow

kev_1_11-08-2024_140651: Today I
talked to Catherine Farlan about

her pivot from Global Head of
Digital Experience, strategy and

Operations at Vodafone to becoming
a change in management consultant.

Now, as anyone with any
leadership experience knows.

Simply asking or telling people
to adopt a new system, structure,

process, way of working, or whatever
is unlikely to meet with much success.

Change is much harder than that, and as
you'll hear, it's a deeply human endeavor.

and the systematic change management
has lots of parallels with the

way that we, design and innovate.

It's just with a different focus.

Now, this conversation follows on nicely
from the previous two episodes, in that it

explores both a potential career track for
some design and innovation leaders, but

more importantly, it lays out a skill set
that many could benefit from integrating

into their current initiatives.

Okay, let's get into it

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: So
welcome to the podcast, Catherine.

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139:
Thank you.

It's a pleasure to be here.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: Yes.

The reason that I, wanted you on is
that you've made an interesting career

move recently from design leader
to change management consultant.

I wonder if you could give us a
bit more background on that change.

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139:
yes, by all means.

and I think I'm just going
to go back, because I've done

three pivots in my career.

so I grew up abroad and my
adopted home is the Netherlands.

I've, I've, I think my first job after
international relations, I landed in

the international broadcasting and
I was surrounded by really creative

people, journalists and producers.

And in my early days, and my first
exposure to designers was, building

out website productions and audio
productions with radio content.

And, we're talking way back
when, and, it was such a great

learning environment because,
digital and online was really new.

It was called new media then.

And, we experimented a lot at that time.

And, and.

We didn't have any kind of specialism,
so we did everything ourselves, coding

HTML, experimenting with audio, designing
your own graphics in the first versions

of Adobe, and so in my very early days,
when the first designers arrived on the

scene, it was such a great experience.

upping of the standard and the quality
of the first online productions.

My first pivot was actually stepping into
a leadership role and leading designers.

And it was also the first time I was
exposed to, uh, change and resistance

to change because there was a lot of
resistance to the technology that was

just about to go and, disrupt a lot
of industries, including broadcasting.

and then the next pivot was when
I moved from public service.

To corporate environment.

and that's when my digital
background really scaled.

So I landed as a leader of a design
operations team, UX and UI, and then

spent the rest of my career, leading
design teams, leading digital teams,

launching websites, rolling out mobile
apps, aligning new processes, rolling out

agile and really, embedding and aligning
new process and new ways of working.

And in all of that,
what I really loved was.

Just being able to help other individuals
be the best versions of themselves.

and so I later I, I upscaled to being
a professional coach and mentor.

and then the third transition, which
goes back to what you were saying, was

that I decided to take all of the digital
transformation skill set, the change

skill set, the design leadership and
change management, and go freelance.

And so now what I do is I help businesses
through digital business change.

transformation.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: Great.

You mentioned the sort of
transformation work at Vodafone.

Could you say a little bit more of
the types of transformation projects

you did at Vodafone and what you
learned from those experiences?

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139:
so I think, so I've done various

types of, transformation.

I think, the very first experiences
are really vertical, change or vertical

reorganization of a team or more teams.

I've been exposed to a lot of
restructuring, embedding new ways of

working, and aligning new processes.

Um, I think another type of
change is that of horizontal.

back in the day, An example of that
would be business support systems,

huge numbers of systems um, had become
obsolete and were replaced by, one system.

I think another example of that is rolling
out agile, globally across, In a number

of markets and actually working with
designers at the time to set up a center

of excellence for design, and working
substantially and with the markets.

Um, and then I think a third.

third type of change is
just a function only.

So more recently, helping roll out a
collaboration tool or in the design

case, rolling out a design system
would be a good example of that.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139:
Excellent, excellent.

So I think lots of people have
heard the term change management,

and maybe not everybody has got a
particularly solid understanding of

what that actually means in practice.

so could we just start with your
outline of what you actually

mean by change management?

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139:
It's interesting because I think,

if you'd asked me back in the day,
my career, um, We never had change

leads in any of the sort of big
transformation work that we've done.

so I, I think it's a really new phenomenon
to have this kind of skill set, but In

its essence, it's really about helping
individuals, teams and organizations move

from a current state to a future state.

And the parallel with design
is, like design thinking and the

double diamond is very much about
looking at the as is journey.

And then the to be journey.

And with that background in mind, when I
moved into the space of change management,

there's a lot of parallels and In its
core, I think it's about minimizing the

resistance to change, helping individuals
through that, tying what they're doing to

organizational objectives and just being
really transparent and, you know, about

the communication about why you're doing
it and what's the benefit to you as an

individual and those to the organization.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: but I think
some people will have, gone through,

rolling out a new design system or.

Rolling out Agile or something, but,
and change management wasn't mentioned.

And maybe the people leading it didn't
even think of it as change management.

So what's the difference between
just designers getting on and

rolling out something like that
and a change management project.

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139: I think
it's a more structured approach now.

So it's, it's much more
a systematic approach.

It's planned, it's managed,
and then it's sustained.

and I think in all of that,
you've got to measure the success.

So you almost measure the health of
that change as you move through it.

So I think traditionally, we're very
functional about a program of work

that as part of a transformation.

So you're looking at things like, the
deliverables and the scope whether

it's within budget and timeline.

So it's very functional and transactional.

I think where change has come
in is really about the people.

And I think there are two
statistics to share here.

The first, I think, is there is evidence.

that you're seven times more likely
to meet a business objective with

a structured approach to change.

I think that's the first one.

And an often cited statistic is, the
70 percent failure rate of digital

transformations that I think McKinsey
has, researched back in the day.

where there's many reasons why they fail.

But three of the reasons that they
fail is lack of employee engagement.

It's lack of sponsorship at the top to
manage that change and walk the talk

throughout because change is hard.

And the third one is, people managers
and directors need help and support to

manage change effectively because suddenly
they have, different roles, they have

to manage resistance within their teams.

They have to be coaches.

So it's not only about
delivering to, financial results

or the commercial results.

And I think that's the
fundamental difference that it

was more transactional then.

And now there's a real need to
focus on the human, on the people,

the human

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: So would
you, would it be fair to say that it's

a more holistic and systematic approach
to change, and less narrowly functional?

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139:
Definitely.

I think it, I think
that's it in a nutshell.

And also measuring it.

as you move along in the change process.

and what I mean by that is tapping
in, and I think this is key also

with designers, tapping into the user
experience, for want of a better word.

how are people feeling about the change?

Because you may, you may start the
change with a lot of, uh, motivation

and energy and, but change is hard and
it's, it, you're in it for the long game.

So often, real good change takes at least
a year, maybe one and a half years before

you really start to see the impact.

And you've got to manage
people through that.

and very often, so I will show them
the Kubler Ross change curve, uh,

to illustrate the grief process.

And when individuals go through change,
they actually have to let go first.

You there's a lot of pain,
frustration and anger.

And we need to understand,
what's in it for us?

Why is my role, or my purpose or
my skill going to be better after

I've gone through that change curve?

And it's okay.

And I think that's a really
important message up front when,

helping people through change.

And I think one of the key things
is really tying the purpose of

the change to the individual.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: Yeah.

let's talk about that.

Why it's so hard then.

you can imagine some design leaders
that, they've spent quite a long

time, figuring out which, Which
system to roll out or whatever.

And it's clearly better than this old
creaking system that they had before.

they're quite excited about it.

They've got the budget, and they want to
make it happen as quickly as possible.

why doesn't everyone get on board?

what are the typical kind of barriers?

to change that, I might be below the
surface and less, less easy to spot.

So

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139: So when
there's a change to you, and whether

it's personal, it's psychological,
and it's an emotional level.

So people may not even be conscious
about what it is that's affecting them.

But very often it will be.

Loss of security, loss of control, uh, and
anxiety about will I be able to, do this.

new process?

Will I be able to have
the skill sets to do it?

Um, the, does it complicate my work?

Will I lose autonomy over what I'm doing?

So there's such a plethora of very
emotional, psychological reasons

why people are resistant to change.

and I think leaning into
that is, is really key.

And I think that's where designers are
are people who really ask open questions

and they will probe to really understand,
the needs, the wants, the pain points.

And that's the same in change.

It's basically the same.

It's, it's the human centered
approach, to making something better.

But it, you have to start first with,
okay, what are you taking away from me?

And what am I getting in return?

And how is that going
to impact me personally?

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: it's
redirecting the empathy approach

from external consumers and
users to internal colleagues,

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139:
Absolutely.

Absolutely.

It's empathy, it's active listening,
um, it's asking open questions,

and really getting to the root
cause analysis, but it's really

what is driving that resistance?

And very often you'll find, it's,
it's, when I lose my job, very, what

we're seeing now with AI is an example,
that's the first thing that people are

bringing up is it's going to replace me.

What's my purpose after,
if AI does my job.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139:
And I'm guessing like people

might not be completely upfront
about some of these barriers.

so have you got any, any tips on
how to get to those and uncover

stuff that quite personal, prodding
at insecurities or whatever, might

be at the, at those root causes.

People might not want to be completely
transparent, other sort of indirect ways

of surfacing those kinds of barriers.

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139:
So interestingly, I think, so two

things I would say there, I've
been in situations where, a program

of work has got off, a year ago.

it's all very transactional.

suddenly it hit a blocker.

And I think from a change perspective,
I would always go back almost to the

beginning of the process as in the
planning stage and the discovery.

And what I mean by that is, having
an anonymous survey where you ask

people questions that they can fill in
anonymously, both, on a sort of four point

scale or an open question, that's one.

Follow it up with one to one
interviews and select people to

really have deep conversations
that follow up on those surveys.

and then with all of that, and this
is something I've learned also in

team coaching, is You keep everything
anonymous, but you play back the

reflections and you bring people
together to actually talk through the

resistance and the barrier points and
clarify and co create the solutions.

But going back first to the root cause,
it's having everyone understanding

how people are feeling, but keeping
it anonymous, but reflecting it back.

You but actually bringing people
together and work shopping and, having

post its and journeys up on the board
and asking questions, all of those

techniques you can use today to uncover
exactly what's going on in a group.

in a group of people or a team and you'll
be surprised once you get people together

and they feel like it's a safe space, a
place where they, they are, it's trusted.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: Now, I guess
to a certain extent, any project, any

big project or sizable project has got
some change involved in it, but the more

intentional change projects that I've been
involved in is when I've been involved

in say, coming up with a new vision or
a new set of principles or what have

you, and I've pointed out to the leaders
that I'm working with is that just.

Sharing these, this vision or sharing
these principles is unlikely to

affect the change that you want.

that there's a wide, there's
a softer element to getting,

people to do things differently.

And, and then we've stepped back and
go, how are we going to introduce this

and how are we going to track, to what
extent it's getting, real traction.

I'm guessing the work that you do
now as a consultant is that, projects

have already been identified as well.

This is a change management challenge,
but we need to get some support on this.

are there some signs, if you like,
that, that sort of flag up that, a

change management, approach is needed?

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139:
So very often it's resistance

to change, the resistance to, it
just comes to a grinding halt.

So it's the adoption, the engagement
and the usage, a team is not motivated.

So it's very much the emotional, I
would say, the human elements that

suddenly somebody thinks, oh, this
is not going in the right direction.

most recently being brought in, to
a project where the actual platform

re platforming started a year ago.

and I think from a structured
change approach, you actually

start at the beginning.

you go back to, doing more of an audit
and a gap analysis and interviewing

people and understanding, doing
the health check, where are they?

and there's, there are structured
surveys that sort of determine, um, in

what areas is it the strategy that they
don't understand, the vision, Do they

understand the purpose of the change?

Do you really have to take stock, take a
step back and go back to the beginning?

And then go through that
structured process again.

and change, a change
lead can be one person.

So I've been in situations where
I am the change lead and working

with an organization to help them.

by taking that more structured approach,
and I've also been part of a, almost

a squad where we had different roles,
and together, like this three or four

of us, one will look at the processes.

One will look at the training
and the communication.

One will look at sort of the
business readiness and focus on the

stakeholder group and the actual
engagement and adoption of the people.

But it really starts with tapping into.

Okay, do they understand
the vision and the strategy?

Do they understand the
benefits of the change?

Do we understand what the
objectives are of this change?

What are the benefits
of to the organization?

And how do you tie the impact
on each of these teams?

whether it's finance, HR, the
commercials, the retailers, whether

they understand how the impact on
their department or their division

is directly tied to an organizational
benefit or the program's objectives.

and so we really go back to the
basics and take that structured

approach before moving on.

So I think that was a long winded way
of saying, If something gets stuck,

if a change program or a program of
transformation gets stuck, I think

from a change lead perspective,
I'd always go back to the beginning

and check in with the people, and
why and what is the resistance?

Where's that coming from?

Um, and that's really root cause analysis.

So you have to go back and I
think the other key thing about

change is keeping tabs on that.

throughout the program.

if you work with key sponsors and you've
asked them to come in and to mobilize

and motivate the teams, to explain
the strategy, why we are doing it, why

the organization needs to move in this
direction, that message needs to get out.

continue to be repeated throughout
the change because every single change

transformation I've been through, there
is a point in the middle where everybody

just gets so tired and exhausted.

and I think as a change lead,
it's really key to help people

through that exhaustion.

And, keep the faith and to keep going.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: I totally
get why, if you'd want to make it, maybe

take a step back and take a different
approach when you hit resistance to

change, but presumably it's better to
anticipate when you're going to get that

resistance and take a more systematic
approach and set things up better before

running into some barriers and reversing
a little bit and taking, This more

intentional approach then, so surely
it's better to anticipate it, is it not?

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139:
Oh, yes, definitely.

and I think if you're going in
for a change program of work,

it starts with, okay, what are
your goals what are the outcomes?

What does success look like after you've
achieved the change in transformation?

What is the strategy and really
the vision of the strategy, the

goals, the outcomes and getting
people to really understand that.

I think that structured
approach up front is really key.

And you can then, you you
can start involving people.

So involving others very early
on, um, creating, you know,

I've had transformations where
we've created, change champions.

Thanks.

Um, so individuals in different teams
that represent the rest of the team

almost, and they become your champion
of change or your change agent.

I think in, there are situations where
they, it calls for a coalition of peers.

So one of the things I'm really
passionate about is what I

call, Horizontal alignment.

leaders who actually build
the relationships with their

peers across an organization
because you're not in it alone.

And I think if you create that
sort of peer, uh, alignment, that

horizontal alignment, then the change
will be much easier and smoother

to affect across the organization.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: Yeah.

let's on that, let's unpack those three
types of change you, you mentioned

earlier on in the conversation.

I think you talked about vertical,
horizontal and function only, if you like.

So let's unpack one of those one by one.

So by vertical, do you mean that
there's a, an initiative or strategy

coming board level, it might be an
efficiency driver, whatever it is,

and every function in the organization
has got to execute their part of it.

Is that essentially what you
mean by a vertical change?

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139: yes,
and it could also be only one part of

the organization, so both could be true.

so I've had, you a central part of the
organization needs to do a restructure

after a cost cutting exercise, but it
still needs to service other parts of

the organization, but to do that more
effectively and more efficiently, they

needed to restructure and reorganize.

For me, that's a very vertical
sort of, reorganization or change.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: what are
the key kind of characteristics of that

type of project, that kind of change?

How do you treat that differently
from say other change projects?

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139: I
think in a restructure, it's very

much after you've gone through in,
in the UK, you may have a lot of

sort of and union, uh, consultation.

I think with a restructure, what I've
found is that people can come out of

it feeling quite bruised and, they've
lost a number of colleagues, and they're

suddenly confronted with a structure.

which they haven't been part of.

So they haven't been part of the
design, they haven't actually adopted

the, that really understood the role.

So they may step into these roles, because
that's the way the structure has been

decided, and then have to evolve and adopt
and accept that they have a new, a new

role in a new part of the organization.

So that, I think that's one example.

Um, you almost have to do the change
in the reverse because then, uh, you

almost have to help them understand
what their new role is and how it will

benefit, how they will benefit from
it individually and how it's tied into

the organization and the strategy.

And I think intellectually people
understand why a change is needed.

But that's still maybe a
gap in how they're actually

feeling about it, individually.

and I've had experiences where I
think the first two or three months

is quite tense as people try and
adopt and work in their new role.

And not quite understanding exactly what's
expected from them and then having to work

with other colleagues that they do know,
but they've also got a different role.

So I think in that sense, again,
going back to the structured

approach, the approach is the same.

So you still go through a planning stage.

And managing in a sustained stage, but
you spend, I spent a lot of time bringing

people together and really understanding
the root cause of their emotion and

then helping them to understand their
races, their roles and responsibilities.

Understanding how that role will deliver
to the strategy, almost setting up

a team charter together, the rules
of engagement, but all co created.

So really working with the teams to co
create rules of engagement, clarifying

roles and responsibilities and basically
setting up this new purpose and vision.

So that's, I think,
vertical, that would answer

that question.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: And
then let's go to horizontal then.

And you talked about, was
it horizontal alignments?

can you give us an, maybe an example
or two of those types of chain

projects and how you approach those?

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139: Yeah,
so the horizontal, those can be quite

big organizational transformation.

a couple of examples there are the
sort of replacing business support

systems across an organization.

for instance, recently having a
finance organization replace, their

finance platform, which basically
hits nearly every single department.

Um, That is a really big
horizontal transformation.

And I think what's really key
there was horizontal alignment

and the stakeholder engagement.

So Creating a, a senior state,
bringing senior stakeholders together

because it's very often they will
need to be equipped to be able to

support their teams, and creating that
horizontal alignment and coalition

of peers to help drive the change.

The same things are true.

you still got to understand
the strategy and the vision.

And why we're doing it, but then creating
that peer coalition horizontally.

because each of their teams will be
impacted and maybe in varying ways.

and the sheer scale of a BSS
transformation, or even rolling out

Agile, Agile, the Agile rollout, also
globally at the time, hit every market

and every, uh, function operationally.

And you almost have to create
smaller coalitions within market or

within global to help that process
and each market or each division

may do it slightly differently.

And I think that's the other thing,
is allowing people to experiment,

that's a nice, thing about design,
so experimentation is really key.

And if it's safe to try, just
go ahead and try it, and then

iterate and change the process.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139:
And that example.

So would you, would you advise doing
a few sort of pilot tests with a few

maybe more enthusiastic parts of the
organization test there and then use

those two as kind of demonstration
for the rest of the organization.

So you've learned through the
process of doing it, but you've also

gotten something to point at, for
phase two and three sort of thing.

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139: Yes, I
think, I think prototyping as a key skill

set of designers, is also very true for
organizational change or re platforming.

So starting small, uh,
almost doing your MVP.

and, empowering the teams to just
experiment as much as possible,

iterate and then go again.

and, I've seen that work really well in,
in organizations more recently, where

we've done, new ways of working, we've
aligned new processes, a really key one

in Agile is retrospectives, introducing
retrospectives, and then just iterating.

doing those on a frequent basis to
actually look at your way of working and

improve your way of working as a team,
as individuals and across the teams.

Yeah, I'm a big proponent of starting
things small, experimenting and then

scaling up across an organization.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: Great.

And I think you mentioned sort of function
only or what, one department or one team.

So I think you use the example
of a rolling out a new design

system within a design function.

Is there anything distinctive
about those or it's just a little

bit, smaller and more containable?

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139: I
think that last one is very true.

The latter is very true.

It is containable.

I think what was interesting about
rolling out a new design system is,

And I think that's true of all change,
is to communicate more about what

is going on and why you're doing it.

I think people are interested,
but they don't always understand.

And I think the design system,
it's very, you you ask a designer

and they know exactly what it is.

But trying to explain to somebody
in HR or, maybe even in the sales

part of the organization, exactly
what the design system will bring

and how it will benefit is it.

is quite, is more of a difficult one.

but again, going back to your question,
yes, functional change contained, within

a function of designers is much easier
because they understand it, they get it,

they understand why they're doing it.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: Great.

Now I just got, want to.

Go back to, leadership in change.

So I think you said sometimes you're
the main leader of a change project.

I've also heard of this kind of concept
of kind of a, multiple change agents and

almost like a volunteer army of change
agents who are bought into the vision

and enthusiastic are starting to model
that change within the organization.

and they aren't necessarily, got
authority, that, in, in the hierarchy

that they're not necessarily.

at the top of any function, but they're
being encouraged to lead change.

Could you just talk a little bit about,
how change is led and to what extent

it needs formal authority to do that
and to what extent it can be done,

through influence rather than authority.

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139: I
would say that it is actually a lot

more about influence than authority.

you bring in, so usually there'll be
a change or transformation program,

with quite a number of people involved.

There may be, roles, that offer change
lead, which looks at the overall change

process and manages that and, are we,
are we following the structured approach.

But I think what's true of any change
is creating, you call it volunteers,

for me, it's change champions, which are
almost these, talents within a team that

suddenly emerge as, real champions of the
change motivated, highly energized and

creating, again, bringing them together.

as your volunteer army, so to
speak, or your champions of change.

And working with them, I think, has been
really powerful in all the work I've done.

So in nearly every organization I've
been in, There's there have been people

without the formal authority, but they've
had great influence on their own team

members to influence, either the rollout
of a new platform, a new way of working.

they've understood what the benefits
are, and they really help, um, to.

Motivate and engage.

And the also of the people who actually
flag, what's going on and where the

resistance and barrier points are.

And, um, so it's almost the eyes
and ears on the ground, so to speak.

and what I've really liked is
that some of these have emerged as

amazing talents in their own rights.

And, if you follow them after a
couple of years, you'll just, they'll

suddenly emerge as, a leader somewhere
leading another team themselves.

And you could already see that talent
back in the day when they were doing

the change sort of champion work.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: Yeah, I'll
come back to that, that one in a second.

But the, just going back to these
change champions, any more to

say on how they are identified,
recruited, mobilized, organized,

rewarded, even, how does this happen?

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139: so in
my experience, it's usually the leaders

of these, the formal line managers.

will know who the talents
are in their team.

They will already have pinpointed, who
are the motivators and the energizer.

So that's always a really good source.

who is, who are the change
champions in your team?

another way, sometimes they
will put their hand up.

So you could just ask, asking is also a
great way of getting people to put their

hand up and say, yeah, I'm interested.

it's often people with a growth mindset
who really want to learn something or

develop the skills or, Yeah, so that's
how I probably go and source them they're

in every, they're in every organization.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: And you're
looking for almost representatives,

at least one champion from
key parts of the organization.

So you've got someone embedded,
if you like, in all the key teams.

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139:
Yeah, absolutely.

And it could be one or two, and I
think a key one is also not being

afraid, I say that between quotes,
of having skeptics, so the more

criticizers, as a change champion.

Because you don't, again, going to, to
this unconscious bias, you don't want,

the, only the promoters, in a sense,
you want the promoters, but it's also

really good to understand, not so much
the detractors, but the neutrals, who are

willing to, okay, I'm not fully committed,
but, I'll get on board and I'll help,

because they, too, have such insight into,
again, the resistance within the team and

what's really going on under the surface.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: Yeah.

and they could also have a lot
of influence and credibility

within their teams as well.

Yeah.

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139:
Absolutely.

Absolutely.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: Now
just related to that, just very

practically, you've got, all these
people with a very busy day job.

Running day to day operations.

how do you juggle?

introducing a transition that
introduces things change while not

disrupting day to day operations.

How do you structure things?

How do you manage that?

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139:
That's a really tough one because

most transformation is usually
done whilst flying the plane.

I think you've heard that a lot before.

so it's really about prioritization,
effective prioritization, and

it's not, I think what's really
interesting about change.

People have, Difficulty in deciding what
not to do is an interesting one in change.

So if you're implementing a change
in a transition, take stock and

decide what you're not going to
do and make change a priority.

And that means, or part of your
priorities, not the priority,

because obviously you've still
got to meet your sales targets.

but I don't think you can just say, If you
want to get everybody involved, then it

has to be part of the top three priorities
of a week, a certain amount of time spent

on, reworking a process or, um, going to
do a training or a skill set, upskilling.

Whatever it is.

So I think that needs to be factored in.

does that answer your question?

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: do
you negotiate a certain amount

of time with line managers to, to
free up people for change project?

in a way that is.

Reduces kind of disruption
as much as possible.

Is that one of the things that you do?

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139:
yes, you can definitely up front

if so I'll give you an example.

If you need a certain number of, you need
to upskill a certain number of people and

they need to take part in the training.

And that training is
scheduled, in two months.

That's one that you can really plan for.

So I guess going back to the planning.

You need to plan your resources
and your resource pattern, uh,

and how it's going to affect, you
know, they're there every day.

So as an example, more recently in
the finance transformation, we needed,

we had subject matter experts, but
the volume of what they needed to do

for the change would grow over time.

And therefore you can plan for that.

Also, when they had to step
away and do sort of month end,

financial planning and therefore
weren't available for the change.

And that goes back to
the structured approach.

So all of that can be factored
in if you're working very closely

with the project manager, for user
experience testing and training,

all of that can be planned.

Um, so that, I think that's

another way of looking at it.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139:
Yeah, definitely.

Now you've mentioned quite a few things
about, what it was from your design

leadership background that helped
with moving into change the, action.

Asking open questions, the empathy, the
journey mapping, the experimentation.

There's a lot, obviously lots and
lots of parallels and, approaches

that you could, repurpose if you like.

but what new?

skills that you need to add to
your toolbox to, to be really

effective as a change manager.

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139:
I think beginning a bit more

versed in, change model.

So really understanding the
theory behind what I was doing,

I think, more intuitively.

there are lots of change models out there.

I think one of the, the two, one of
them, you'll know, like the cotton

model, the eight step process.

and then there's the Procyte ADCA model,
which is a quite globally well known.

when I did that sort of, the theory and
the certification, really understanding

how that would help me with all the
digital transformation that I was doing.

and then with hindsight, looking back
and thinking, ah, if I'd known this,

then I probably would have done a
number of things slightly differently.

I think that's definitely upskilling,
and what I'm now doing at the moment is

team coaching, instead of, upskilling
my team coaching skill set, because I

think that is also going to be really
useful in this transformation space.

Um, so I think those
would be the two things.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: So can you say
more about the, obviously the, buffing up

on the, the theory makes a ton of sense,
but when you say team coaching, how is

that different from how you coach your
team, as a design leader at Vodafone?

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139: So
the things that I've learned with,

that I'm learning with team coaching
is again, more of a structured approach

and framework around how you take
your team, or how you work with teams.

And I think with hindsight, I think
a lot of leaders feel like they are

responsible for the change and the
transformation in their team, and they

will go great lengths to pave the way.

And, yeah, almost like a parent child
with, saying how the change should

be run or what we're expected to see.

And I think what I've learned with the
team coaching is that actually it's

much more about creating a really clear
mandate, the commissioning up front.

Okay.

So what are the goals?

what are the outcomes?

What will be different?

after we've succeeded with the goals.

And then clarifying with the team,
actually getting the team to understand

the roles, responsibilities, what's their
purpose, shape that purpose, co create

that purpose, and then co create the
ways of working, the new, how they're

going, basically they become almost
the coalition that drives the change.

And so the team coach role is
there is a support and a guide to

constructively challenge like with
any coaching and to mirror back what

you're hearing, but the team itself
with the leader becomes, is responsible

to drive that change through together.

And I think that is a really key
one that, that's different than say,

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: Yeah, yeah,
I think you might have, maybe partly,

answered my final question really, but,
I guess my ultimate question is that

you've, if you knew what, you know,
now, when you were in your previous

role as a design leader, how would you
have approached things differently?

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139: So
I would ask more rather than tell.

So going back to, asking a lot of
open questions and, really probing.

So what's the question
behind the question?

I would build, the horizontal alignment.

I would strengthen the horizontal
alignments with my peers.

I think that's an end be much more
open about communicating the change

that's going on in a team and
across so that, just having that

transparency of communication up and
down and across the organization.

Um, cause I think people are interested
to know what's going on, even if

they don't have, it's not relevant
for them at a particular point.

Um, and I think even more so than
I've been doing is experimentation.

I just love the concept of getting teams
together to co create an experiment.

And I think this is where, the design,
my designs to leadership, the value of

how designers and agile practitioners
really empower, teams and different

disciplines to come together.

Yeah.

And to co create and shape and
experiment and then, iterate.

And just keep learning that
so that continuous learning

and continuous improvement.

I think that's certainly one that I wish
I had known more about more intentionally.

So many years ago.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: And did you,
maybe you did this at the time, but,

I'm guessing when you've got that more
intentional approach to change, you

probably, you're more aware of the sort
of change champions or the potential

change champions in your team as well.

Would that be fair?

Yeah.

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139:
Oh yes, I definitely think so.

Because with hindsight, you know
the people that I've You know,

being honored to work with and, have
some sort of influence on, they've

gone on to do just amazing things.

Uh, and it was already, it
emerged already back then.

Definitely.

It's, and I think to be
honest, it would change.

It's really human.

the human centered approach about design,
I think also is very true of change.

It's the human, what's the human element?

And we all, the magic happens
because we all want to have

significance, in the contribution
that we make to making things better.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: the, just from
my reflections of the, The projects that

I've been involved in that in this area
is that the people who do step up and

show enthusiasm and put their hand up,
they are doing it on top of their day job.

and when you speak to them afterwards,
they, it was extra, that they weren't

getting formally rewarded for it.

but they got to learn quicker.

They got more visibility in the company.

they got to often work and
collaborate with more senior

people in different departments.

And, They often tend to accelerate their
career as a result, so I think it's

there's some enlightened self interest,
in there as well, I think, as well.

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139: Yeah.

Absolutely.

Couldn't agree more with

that.

kevin_1_11-07-2024_100139: indeed.

that's fascinating, Catherine.

and I think hopefully, the audience
will see a lot of parallels in

there, in that they're probably
doing a lot of this intuitively.

but there's, I think there's a lot of
merit in taking that more systematic and

intentional approach to change as well.

So thank you very much.

katherine-f_1_11-07-2024_100139: Yeah.

Thank you.

It's been really nice.