Product Powwow

squadcaster-hfdd_3_02-28-2025_161256:
Today I talk to Andrew Barraclough, who

has held a number of corporate design
leadership roles, as well as doing tours

of duty in marketing and r and d, and
he is also run his own design agency.

His experience also spans industrial
design, package design and digital.

And partly as a result of this broad
experience, he's one of the most

commercially and organizationally
savvy design leaders I know.

So in this conversation we talk about how
to raise designs impact on organizations

by developing a portfolio of stories
backed by appropriate metrics to

engage with stakeholders on a regular
basis, rather than chasing the red

herring of a single killer ROI number.

Later on in the episode, he also
has sage advice on how to collect

and contextualize measures from
different parts of the business.

We also cover his concept of design
linking the important internal plumbing

work of connecting different design teams,
initiatives, partners and stakeholders

together to maximize design's impact.

I hope you enjoyed the show.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: So
andrew, welcome to the podcast.

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: great to
be, invited to have a chat with you.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: we talk on
a regular basis and, the conversation

often turns to the state of design.

So I thought it'd be good to have
a bit of a recap of some of the

conversations we've had recently.

particularly around the topic of how best
to articulate value to senior management,

has become a bit of a hot topic recently
with all the machinations in the design

industry of what I've called the doldrums.

and you're just someone who's got
quite grounded, commercially savvy,

but very nuanced views on this topic.

So I thought it'd be good
just to, dig into that.

a little bit more, but before we get into
that specifically, do you just want to

introduce your career history a little bit
before we get into the topics of the day?

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: Yeah, sure.

I've probably had what people
might call a portfolio career.

a very long time ago, I did
start out as a designer.

I did that for about four years.

and then I actually, I moved into a, an
R and D product development kind of role.

at the time working with Reckitt and
Coleman, which is now Reckitt Benckiser.

Yeah.

I spent about five, five years working
in product and packaging development.

And then, if I'm honest, I got a bit sick
of being told what to do by marketing.

I went and did a master's degree and
I moved into marketing with Reckitt

Benckiser and spent four or five years in
brand management, marketing management,

doing the full brand management mix.

and I guess that's where I fell
in love with brands in a way.

And always had a little bit
of an itch to do my own thing.

So I left that after about five years
and set up my own, product design agency.

doing a lot of more
hardcore product design.

Kettles, toasters, mountain bikes,
children's toys, those sorts of things.

I then, sold that agency to a, to another
agency, more of a full service agency.

doing branding and research and strategy.

and I worked in there for,
for a couple of years.

and then, it was a time when P& G
was talking a lot about design and

they put Claudia Kochner on the
board when, Laffey realized that it

was a good time to invest in design.

And, Reckitt Benckiser were also
interested in what to do with design

and I'd been fortunate enough to work.

inside for them and also as
a client of theirs as well.

So they asked if I would go back and
help understand what design could be.

So I spent a few years there helping
build their first design management

organization, thinking about how
they can use design, more broadly

and get more value out of design.

then I left and went to work for
Novartis and moved to Switzerland.

Very similar kind of role, a company
that had products perhaps not brands

and really wanted to invest in design.

they equally had a CMO who was ex P& G,
so really recognized the value of design.

did that for a while.

Then I went to GSK, GSK
Healthcare, now called Halion.

And I spent ten years there building
quite a large design organization.

nearly 30, 40 people, across the
world in China, India, Singapore,

Switzerland, UK, and the U.

S.

Managing the full end
to end design process.

So digital design, product design, in
store environment, packaging, everything

of the way the brand showed up.

Again, with sponsorship, and I
think we'll probably come back to

talk about that a little bit later.

But, sponsorship from the CEO who
joined from L'Oreal and really

wanted to make great brands.

then I did a short spell, wanting to
hone my digital skills, really wanted to

learn more about digital design and build
more competence around digital design.

So I went to BP and did
a short contract there.

And then recently, the last two or
three years, I've been working at

Imperial Brands with a very similar
mission, really, and the same sort

of sponsorship of, can you help us
get the true value out of design and

look at design more holistically?

I think, and we'll talk a little bit
more about it, but I see design not as

a fish hook, not as one thing, but think
of it more a little bit like Velcro.

It's a hundred little things that add up
to that great net effect and that builds

a great experience, but it's not you do
one thing you do, a hundred little things.

It's the addition of incremental gain
that creates that great brand experience

that we're all striving to do and achieve.

So it's been a quite a mixed career.

I think probably that gives me a
different perspective for design because

I've worked in an R and D function.

I've worked in a marketing function.

I've been a designer and I've
worked in an agency as well.

So it gives me ability to, talk and
look at design perhaps differently

than having a purist design career.

like a lot of potential other
design leaders that are out there.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: Indeed.

And across lots of disciplines, right?

So industrial design, packaging, both,
structural and graphics, digital.

a lot of, disciplinary experience
as well, which is great.

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: Yeah.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: on to,
thing that I mentioned, at the

top about there's more discussion.

on the question of the ROI of design has
been around for a long time, but because

I think design leaders, are facing.

more challenging times
than, have done for a while.

There's more questions being asked
about the value of design and, the

obvious questions about, what metrics,
what numbers can you point to in terms

of, how did, design delivers value?

Do you just want to just set us up
for that discussion in of how you see

the best way to, address that topic?

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538:
Yeah, it's a, as you say, it's

a, it's an age old question.

And interestingly, it's not one that
necessarily the advertising industry

have spent, have worried too much
about people have been quite convinced.

And there's been some quite clear metrics
for measuring, the effectiveness of

creativity within advertising and design.

I think hasn't done a particularly
good job in terms of selling its value.

And I wonder if that's because for me,
The creative industry has had a very

simple way of measuring design and
measuring design effectiveness and design.

probably people have been talking about
what's the magic bullet, what's the

thing and how do you measure design?

And I think the mistake from a lot
of people make for me is looking for

that one color silver bullet, that
one piece of magic that shows real

value and I don't see it like that.

I see the way you measure designers.

You need to measure it in multiple ways.

The value that both design brings
and as a design leader, the value

that you bring into an organization.

And I think there are some lag
measures, that you can measure.

So you can be measuring
the equity of a brand.

and then there are some lead measures.

So you can measure purchase
interest, for example.

and I think for me, you have to
be measuring in multiple ways.

It could be measuring the money that
you're saving an organization because of

the way that you've reorganized contracts.

It can be the way that you've streamlined
an organization in the way that it,

buys its artworking or it buys its
print and point of sale material or uses

AI, for example, to localize material.

It can also be standard shelf tests, those
things that we know, the industry's used

for a long time, but I think the mistake
is looking for the thing versus taking

a more broader approach as to, I'm going
to measure design in multiple ways, I'm

going in a digital environment, I'm going
to AB test things, I'm going to measure

my distinctive assets over time, I'm going
to look at multiple ways of showing the

value that I'm bringing an organization
and I'm not going to chase the thing,

but I'm going to chase multiple things,
so that I have multiple stories to tell

around the effectiveness of what I'm doing
as a design leader, the value that designs

bring into an organization, the value that
our creative partners are bringing to an

organization that might be something like
awards, for example, and we know we've

got different types of awards, be that
creative awards and effectiveness awards.

but so I would look to build a
portfolio of measurement versus a thing.

and I think that's quite a different
in the same way people look at brands.

we don't just measure
one aspect of brands.

We measure multiple things on brands,
so we should do the same for design.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: I'm just
going to play back what I'm hearing

there, Andrew, is that it's not so
much that, instead of on one number,

you're saying here's, 10, 20 numbers.

It's that you've got some measures,
but it's more that you're,

engaging different stakeholders.

You're telling different stories at
different times, and you're drawing

on different metrics and different
stories to strengthen those stories.

But it's the, it's the stories and
the backup that you pull in from

those metrics that's important.

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: Yeah,
I think when you're going into an

organization, and I've been lucky
enough to join several organizations

who've wanted to build design
leadership within that organization.

you have to have, examples and
case studies and stories, whatever

you want to call them, that, that
appeal to all the different board

members so that you can have.

a conversation with HR or people
in culture, and you can talk about

training and education and raising the
floor, raising the ceiling for design

competence across the organization.

Equally, you've got to be able to have
a conversation with the head of the

supply chain about how you've designed
things to be more efficient on production

lines and saved money or lightweighted.

as well as thinking about your
CMO and brand building, you have

to think about your CFO as well.

So I think for me, it's about looking
around that boardroom and thinking,

how would I communicate with each of
those individuals about the value of

design to that organization, rather
than being very purist about it and

say, here's my story for the CMO.

And that's all I'm going
to worry about, or the CTO.

I think that's a miss for the value
of design and underplays design.

Enormously, if you're only
going to look at it in.

You have one stakeholder, you have,
maybe 10 stakeholders at the board

level and really, you should be having
case studies and examples and stories.

That, will appeal to everybody
around the boardroom.

Because back to my earlier
point, design is not one thing.

It's a little bit of everything.

So tell that story how it is a little
bit of everything and the value that it's

bringing across all the different levers
that you can pull in an organization.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: And
presumably you're also, connecting

what, what you're Design strategies
with the company strategy as well.

So you think about what the objectives
are, what the individual objectives

are of the people around the C
suite are, and then figuring out how

you're going to deliver into each
one of those and the appropriate.

metrics to back that up
and measure progress.

Is that the basic approach?

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: I think when
I've come into each of these roles, which

have been rather a blank canvas, I start
with A rather simple model in a way.

So I look at design.

Imagine a matrix.

I look at design across the top of the
matrix of I look at design strategically,

tactically and operationally.

I then look at the corporate
strategy and the design strategy.

I then look at the process systems
and tools within the organization.

and then I look at, what's
the communication and culture

within that organization.

And I'm looking to fill in that
matrix so that, that's my game plan.

I know you've talked an awful lot
about, building the right strategy.

I think it's super, super important to
build a foundation and a fundament because

to drive organizational change around
design doesn't happen in six months,

you're not successful in six months time.

It's a multi year journey.

And I look at my past roles.

It's probably two or three years before
you're really starting to gain momentum.

And it's always good to reflect back and
make sure that your design strategy is

laddering back to the corporate strategy.

otherwise there's no point doing
it, but also making sure you have

some of the basics right about
process and tools and systems.

but I would say that the, Communication
and culture piece is probably 50 percent

of the deal in that design transformation.

So you can have the right resources,
the right agencies, the right internal

colleagues, the right team, but
making sure that you're continually

educating, helping train, helping
coach, helping the business understand

about design and communicating about
it is probably 50 percent of my week.

in the role that I play,
and I think that's we often

underplay that as designers.

You come in, you know about design.

Therefore, everybody
should know about design.

That's not true.

You have to spend, an awful lot of time
explaining and coaching and showing

people as well, because I think you
can talk a lot about design, but it's

really important in the early days to
pick the right kind of exemplar projects

so that you can show people the results
and you can help keep the traction and

the momentum because waiting for three
years for everything to be brilliant is

a recipe for disaster what are you going
to do in the first six months the next 12

months the next 24 months and the next 36
months that's showing continual progress

to Organizational change around design.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: Great stuff.

Could you say a little bit more
about your approach to engaging

these different stakeholders?

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: Yeah, I
think for me, one of the key points is

about aligning on what good looks like.

So making sure that everybody is on the
same page as to where you're heading.

What does good look like for
the organization that you're in?

Because obviously everybody would go, I
want to be Apple or I want to be Nike.

what's good for you as your business,
and how will you use design effectively?

So I think for me, it's really important
to align on what great looks like.

I think it's super important to
have sponsorship from the top.

I try and drive organizational change
without a sponsor in the organization.

It's very difficult.

Because you need an element of air cover
and support, certainly in the first 12,

18 months, where you're trying to get
the nose off the ground of the plane.

you are going to try some
things that don't work.

That's okay.

and you are going to make a few
mistakes and you've got to try

and learn and progress forward.

And.

That change can be quite hard, so you
may ruffle a few feathers in the process.

but thinking about what are the training
programs I put in place for the design

team that you have so that they become
more, the difference between design

management and design leadership.

Yeah, I think, I want to
have strong design leaders

rather than design managers.

And therefore training your own
team is super, super important

to land in the business.

as well as training the organization
about what might be a distinctive

asset or what would be design language.

thinking about codifying your
brands into brand worlds and why

that's really important for design
quality and design consistency.

So again, I'm looking to.

Do multiple things around that
culture and communication piece.

once you get some work done, apply for
some design awards, use that in the

business to show that you've got momentum.

so it's again about not just, I think
a lot of people go into the business

and get, they get their sleeves rolled
up, they start working on projects

and they start doing great work.

And then they go, Oh, nobody's
listening and nobody gets it

and nobody understands it.

what have you actually done to help not
just do the work, but talk about the work?

And I think as often designers that,
inherently they're problem solvers and

you want to go and solve a problem and
you want to fix things that are broken

and you can get quite distracted.

By just fixing a lot of broken things.

And in most organizations, there's
hundreds of projects and hundreds

of things that are broken and you
can spend all your time doing that.

And that's great.

You have to do that, but you also have
to make sure that you're looking up as

well and sticking to that vision that
you've created on that map of, that

I spoke about earlier, that you're
continually doing all of the other

things as well than just doing the
work and why is designing the doldrums?

We'll probably come to talk on that,
but I wonder a little bit if people

are so focused on the stuff that
they forget the bigger picture of the

organizational change that's required
for people to recognize that the

stuff is great stuff and it is better
stuff and it is shifting the needle.

But if you don't talk about how
or why it's shifting the needle,

then it's just well designed stuff.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: You
talked about the, the importance

of gaining sponsorship.

you got any, advice that had about
how to cultivate that sponsorship?

any examples of stories
you could tell there?

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: Yeah,
I think I've been lucky in the roles

that, I've had over the last, probably
15, 20 years where the people,

who have been my business sponsors
and my business leader have had a

passion for the subject of design.

And unseen, maybe not known how.

But they've seen other organizations
use design effectively, and see that

there's something in it, perhaps not known
how or why or how you would get there.

and I think with them, it's
really important to back to

that almost contracting piece.

when you join an organization,
making sure that.

they may say, Oh, I love Nike or I love
Apple, but grounding it very solidly

in what do they want for that or that
particular organization that you're in?

Cause we can't all be Nike
and we can't all be Apple.

but continually feeding them fuel
to show that the gamble that they've

potentially made on saying we're going
to invest in design and we're going

to be, We're going to be great at
design that, that you're continually

paying back to them, to show progress.

So I think it's without that sponsorship
and I've had one or two instances where

sponsorship has changed and leadership's
changed and they've perhaps not had

the same passion for the subject and
that, that makes it really tough.

Yeah, it makes it really tough
because, you have to over index on

examples and case studies and managing
upwards very well in order to keep

momentum within the organization.

but I think it's about contracting
on the mission and contracting on

the vision, and selling your change
management program in the last few years.

All I'm really running a transformation
program about design and like any

transformation program, be that
everybody's been through a digital

transformation or a HR transformation.

Super important that at the
outset, you are very clear in

articulating, your mission and vision.

And I think as designers, one of
our, superpowers is that we can

really visually bring that to life.

You can make that exciting and
inspiring and use all the tricks and

tips that you have in your locker
room, to sell a really, inspiring

vision of where you could go.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: And is
it partly giving your sponsors or.

stories that they can then
use and tell themselves,

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: Yeah.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: them
with, memorable little facts and

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: Yeah.

I think,

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: use themselves.

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: yeah, I think
it's those little sound bites of change.

Yeah.

So it's little and often versus
in six months, I'm going to do a

really great check in that shows you

.
what a wonderful thing we've been
doing for the last six months.

Yeah.

it's the continual drip feeding of here's
a success in this market, or here's a

success in how we save some money by
lightweight in this product or continually

drip feeding through, because in your
stakeholder map, clearly your sponsors a

huge part of that, but making sure that,
you are constantly communicating to that

stakeholder, positive news, but also
things you've tried and haven't worked.

I think there's a radical honesty
is really important as well.

we may have tried something didn't
work, but that's okay because, if

you're not failing a little bit, you're
probably not trying hard enough anyway.

Yeah.

So you need to be able to share some
of the failures and the learnings that

you've got from that and how are you
going to go again and go differently

and how it will be better next time.

so I think having a super open
relationship also builds trust and

that's the most important thing
that you need in the organizational

change that you're trying to drive.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: Could
you say more about how you plan

your projects for the year or what?

I don't know if it's an annual cycle or
maybe more frequent than that, but, you've

talked in the past about, you're planning
projects, you try and make sure that

there's at least one per key stakeholder
that you can, keep them up to date on

and, have something very tangible to show.

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: Yeah,
I think there's almost two phases.

I think when you first join
an organization and there are

hundreds of projects and you can't
tackle all of them from day one.

So I think it's really important
to identify what I would call

the coalition of the willing.

So first of all, find the people that
are interested in the message that you're

saying and what projects do they have.

And being a little bit selective
about where you will double

down in that first 12 months.

And as I said before, thinking
about the stories you need to tell,

selecting projects that are going to
celebrate certain aspects of design.

So that might be a big
brand ref, reset or refresh.

it might be a digital experience
that needs to be built.

It might be an in store and
environment or it might be a

design to value piece of work.

again, I'm thinking about my communication
strategy and thinking about how can

I show a breadth of design skills
across multiple projects that show

where design can add real value.

I think you then.

Working with that
coalition of the willing.

So there'll be some people who are
just not interested and that's okay.

But work with those that really want to
be the torch bearers of, of great design.

And the rest will follow.

The rest will follow when they
start to see evidence of, the

results that you're creating.

Thank you.

So I think in my first sort of
12, 18 months, I'm being a little

bit more selective, in some of the
projects that you get involved in.

I think then as you start to build
momentum, you naturally start to take

on projects, versus it all being push.

Can I get involved?

Can I help?

How can I help?

You start to reach a little
bit of a tipping point where.

People are calling you and saying,
can I, can you have a look at this?

What do you think about this?

Could you help us with this?

And then you're starting to get
into a bit more business as usual.

I think the, the watch out with that is
that, you can again fall into that trap

of, okay, I'm working on the project list.

but that's not necessarily going to
drive your design agenda forward.

So you still need to be thinking
about, yeah, you're spreading yourself

too thinly or you're just getting
lost in the weeds of running the

hundred projects that are out there.

so you need to be thinking about, OK,
what can I do to celebrate our show?

What AI is doing for us, or how A B
testing in digital could help us, or

what's the iconic move that this brand
should make next, so that you're then

not just running the projects, but you're
thinking, How do I go beyond the brief?

I think it's really important
to continually be thinking about

going beyond the brief, and that's
not on every single project.

Again, you're being selective about,
okay, we've been asked to do this.

This project brief says this.

actually, I think we could do this,
and we can do some additive positive

value on top of this brief by showing
what an environment might be or showing

how we could do a colab in this area.

so I think you go from a being selective
about projects to working on all

projects, to thinking about how do
I go beyond the brief in projects.

And then probably the third stage and,
some of the people listening probably

aware of the Danish design ladder and how
design evolves through an organization.

You then start to think about what's
design's role within innovation.

And that, that a little bit of that
thinking is about going beyond the brief.

It's about those iconic moves, but.

How can design add value into the
innovation process, because that equally

brings you another metric into your
raft of metrics that you're tracking for

design, which would be around how have
you added value by creating and inventing

new ideas, which I think is a really
important role for design, because back to

that designer, inherently problem solvers
designers, I would say, They're the kind

of people that listen with their eyes.

And within those research groups,
they're a key component to help solve

some of those tricky business problems.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: Great stuff.

So could you, could we move
on to your, your concept of

design linking, which you've

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think, there's been loads of talk
about design thinking over the years,

and people have written about it, and
McKinsey's written about it, and for me,

It's a process and it's a great process of
problem solving about and about assessing

things, whether they're desirable,
feasible, viable and sustainable.

It helps you go wide the whole
double diamond process and

then come narrow and go wide.

It helps you co create with consumers.

It helps you prototype and iterate.

So it's a great way of problem solving.

But for me, it creates solutions.

But it's not until it's in
market that you're actually

making money from that thing.

And I think for me, I've spoken
a lot about my concept of design

linking, because back to my design,
it's not a fish hook, it's Velcro,

it's a thousand little things.

You need to, in order to take that idea
that's come from design thinking and

create an amazing experience out of
it, design linking is really critical.

So you're linking all the different
aspects of design, be that digital design,

packaging, product, brand, experience,
in store, environment, merchandise, co

labs, all those things come together to
explode that idea out and therefore design

linking for me conceptually is how you
deliver the results of design thinking.

And.

I think if you just focus on
design thinking, you're potentially

missing the opportunity of all the
hard work that was put into design

thinking process in the way that
you activate and realize that idea.

And, conceptually for
me, that's about linking.

It's about linking the agency partners.

It's about linking the,
internal stakeholders.

It's about linking your design team
because an experience is so multifaceted

across a journey about what consumers
think, feel and do that without thinking

bigger, and linking all of these aspects
together, then you're potentially

going to have design silos, different
departments with different thoughts.

different brand teams with different
sort thoughts, the shopper team

thinking differently to the creative
team, and therefore you get a

fragmented experience for consumers.

So for me, you have to put both
design thinking and design linking

together in order to deliver those
excellent experiences that, that

we see out there in the world.

And obviously we've spoken a bit, a
little bit about Nike and Apple And

others like them, what they're doing
either thoughtfully, I think is actually

they're linking everything together
and, delivering on every single touch

point across that experience journey.

so I don't think you can
have one without the other.

For me, you can't have design thinking
without design linking, because

you're missing an opportunity.

Absolutely.

Yeah,

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: a
whole network of, different,

departments, agencies, all together
in a coherent way to deliver that.

I guess it also has an impact
on the stories you tell, right?

you're in the center of this, you've
done all the plumbing, but I guess

you've got to amp up the storytelling
to let everyone else understand

those linkages you've made, right?

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: absolutely.

I think it's why it's important for
me to have design leadership, not

design management because design
leadership is a much bigger thought

than design managing the process.

and it's about being fantastic
at pulling that multi external

agency network together.

Yeah.

Potentially your internal
design departments together.

and then, gluing all those little pieces,
all that addition of incremental gain

into one holistic thought for consumers.

And yes, you can do a lovely
piece of product design, or you

can do a lovely website, but the
reality is consumers don't have.

A website experience and
then a product experience.

They just buy something from a brand.

And we've seen with multiple brands
that I would say that we have

experience, expectation, inflation,
people have a internal benchmark

of what's good from a brand.

And, if we're not telling the same
sort of joined up stories, both

externally to our consumers, but also
internally to our stakeholders, then,

you're going to disappoint people.

they're going to be breaks in the chain.

Things are not going to look joined up.

and that I think is a real mess and
potentially why is design in the doldrums?

Because I think design exploded so
much that we created design silos

within organisations of individual
design teams all with their sleeves

rolled up, all working on the projects.

But forgetting this thought
about the end of the day.

Consumers just don't just interact
with the brand purely in a digital way.

There's some physical as well.

And there, there's.

A service journey and
all these kind of things.

And if you're not careful, we
can get to, to siloed ourselves.

It's the one thing for me
that's great about design.

most organizations are set up in a very,
we have a finance team and we have a HR

team and we have a, a supply chain team.

Yeah.

The one thing about design is it's
one of the very few functions in

an organization that can cut across
the various different departments.

maybe HR cuts across,
maybe finance cuts across.

But, I think we have this ability to cut
across departments and cut across silos.

And we have to grasp that opportunity
and not, be too siloed ourselves.

I've seen a lot of organizations set up
these beautiful design teams that don't

necessarily often talk to each other.

and that for me is a missed opportunity,
for design, and a missed opportunity

for the organization and for consumers
at the end of the day, who have

a choice to whether they buy your
product or don't buy your product.

and we have to help that choice
by giving them the best possible,

designed experience that we can.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538:
Yeah, I think that, That causes,

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538:
Yeah, I think that

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538:
challenge really, because the

designers it's strongest is when

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: benefits

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: it's

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: is one.

It's

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: but
as a result, it's a lot harder

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: a result,
it's a lot harder to point your eyes.

You've got some proof points
against, but it's going to

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: And it's
about that, pulling those different.

Types of value together into a
coherent case that you've got some

proof points against, but it's
going to be very hard to come up

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: be very
hard to come up with that silver bullet.

Yeah.

Yeah.

and that's why.

I don't think there's one way, like,
how do you measure an experience?

you could spend years
trying to track that down.

But actually, if you're measuring lots
of different elements along the way, and

all of them are positive, you know that
you will get more positive at the end,

versus spend a year trying to create
the most complicated way of measuring

a good experience and a bad experience.

Look at all the addition of incremental
gain that design is bringing across

that, across that journey with all the
different levers that design can pull.

And let's face it, design is complicated
now, go back 50 years and you had product

design, you had furniture design, you had
fashion design, you have brand design.

Now we've got a hundred
different disciplines of design.

be it even sound design, there's lots of
different things that you need to pull.

And therefore, I think it's so unrealistic
to think about a measurement of ROI

of design, it's, it doesn't exist.

And I don't think it's, I don't think
there's a value in chasing down the

thing, but chase down multiple things.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: marshalling
all these because you've talked

about pulling together metrics from
different parts of your activities.

You've talked about lead and lag measures.

I think you've talked about
impact and efficiency measures.

Just practically, nitty gritty,
how do you keep track of all these?

how do you gather them?

who's responsible for setting the
measures in place and all the rest of it?

That sounds like quite a
system to set up and maintain.

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: Yeah, I think
it's about the, for me, the relationship

that you have with your key stakeholders.

So when working with procurement,
you're working with them to

renegotiate contracts with agencies.

So you can quite easily.

measure, their objectives, there's
an element of lining your objectives

with the different stakeholder
objectives that you work with as well.

So you're working with procurement.

So how are you helping, then
save money and do cost avoidance.

They will be tracking that.

So you can take their tracking.

You're working with insights and research.

They're tracking improvement
in purchase intent.

They're running.

Distinctive asset studies.

So you can take their tracking for that.

You can take their tracking for
brand equity and the supply chain

efficiency, environmental, where
you've made things more sustainable.

There are, so all of these things are
being tracked within an organisation.

All you have to do is to dock
in and pull out your section.

So what I don't think.

And I think you could lose yourself as
a design leader trying to set up your

own, beautiful way of measuring design.

But then you're probably just going
to be doubling up on what is already

being done within the organization.

So dock in.

to all of those key stakeholders,
see where the elements are of the

value that you're bringing and
take their metrics because also if

you're taking their metrics, you're
not measuring your own homework.

that there's a danger of marking your
own homework if you're not careful.

it needs to be independent.

So your cost serving numbers need to
be ratified by procurement and finance.

Your insight data needs to
be ratified by insights.

So dock into those key stakeholders,
take their metrics because they're,

they're clean metrics as well.

You've not influenced, any of those
results, but serve them up all

together on, we added this to here.

We added this to here and
we added this to here.

So you are.

You're not doubling up on work,
but, and you're not creating new

process and new systems around
measurement, but you're pulling out

the data that's relevant to design.

So all you're doing in that instance,
really, for me is around, data analytics

management of the aspects of design that
you can measure within the organization.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: But if you've
got an outcome metric maybe around brands,

how would you isolate the impact of design
on that as opposed to say comms or a

greater channel distribution or something?

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: Yeah.

so I think there's all there's
obviously a lot going on.

If you look at, an equity tracking metric.

Yeah, there's a lot that adds
up to an equity tracking metric.

And there, there are many mothers
and fathers who own elements

of that equity tracking metric.

So I think for me, it's
about not over claiming.

Okay.

Yeah, so I think it's about when
you first start understanding

what the equity of the brand is.

And if the equity of that brand
is increasing, a percentage

of that is from design.

Now, because yes, you've got comms
and yes, you've got distribution and

you've got other things adding up to it.

You can't claim 100 percent of the
equity increases because of design.

But that you can claim 10, 10 to 15
percent of that is because of good design.

so, and being very transparent about it,
by saying, look, the equity is improved,

we can't claim all of it, but I believe
that we can claim some of that because

actually when we tested this piece of
design in research, people said it looked

higher quality, it felt higher quality.

We're now charging a
little bit more for it.

So you could, you've got other data points
back to the judges measure one thing, you

have other data points that will ratify
the fact that you want to claim 10 to

15 percent of that equity improvement.

I think it's a mix of both because it's
very difficult to clean up that data.

And is it really, is there
really the value there?

Use some of your other
data points to show.

why the attribute statements that you're
measuring in your, annual tracking

are moving in a positive direction
because people can find it faster.

Oh, look, my distinctive
asset tracking that's gone up.

So that must have an impact on the
overall equity of the brand fact.

like with any.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: isn't it?

It's

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538:
It's like with any data isn't it?

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538:
speak for itself.

You need to contextualize it.

You need to link it
with other data points.

You need to interpret

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: Yeah,

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: And
it's that that pulls together

the real conclusions for it.

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: totally.

you have to show a bigger picture
of all the aspects that are

moving in a positive direction.

And there may be some that are going
down and that's a place to double down

on, but you can't look at one thing in
splendid isolation and go, we did that.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: Indeed.

let's just wrap up

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538:
let's just wrap up with.

Yeah,

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: it's
a bit of a blind alley trying to,

put together an ROI of design.

you've also mentioned that, there's a
danger of getting Stuck in the weeds,

particularly when teams are getting
downsized and just as much work to do,

you've still got to find time to, to
manage up and engage with all the right

stakeholders, any other parting advice,
on the way design leaders should be,

Maybe think, thinking about, create
more impact on their organizations.

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: I would
think, I guess a few final thoughts would

be certainly the one about design linky.

So beware the creation of silos.

Yeah, the giant digital teams that have
been created that don't talk to the

rest of the business or another team in
another department, not talking to it.

So act as a coalition for design.

I think that's really important.

if you do have multiple, departments
of design, I think you must

continually look at the different
ways you can measure design and

organization, and don't forget that.

While you're trying to turn churn through
X number of projects with a smaller team,

that the way to get, more resource is to
continually show value and to show value

is through measuring in multiple ways.

So it's a downward spiral.

If you just trying to do more
and more with less without

remembering to communicate.

and to educate as part of your role.

I think as a design leader, you must
remember that part of your, role

is to be a spokesperson for good
design and what that's doing for the

organization for shareholder value.

Yeah.

At the end of the day, you have to
talk about design as shareholder value.

And that means, You don't fall
into the traps of I like it.

I don't like it.

Yeah.

I'm quite happy to say a
lot of the work that I do.

I don't like, and that's a
good thing because I'm not

necessarily the end consumer.

being brave about, that you're here
to deliver against consumer unmet

underserved needs to drive brands
forward to drive shareholder growth.

And to drive bottom line at the
end of the day, that's why we're

all, that's why we all come into
the office at the end of the day.

so I think remember to communicate, make
sure you've got a very clear, articulated

plan before you actually start.

Don't get lost in the weeds.

Make sure that you're always thinking
about what's the brand's next iconic move.

What's your role in innovation?

How can you talk to your key
stakeholders about what are

their tricky business problems?

The things that are keeping
them awake at night.

How can you act on those again?

So you don't get lost in the
mire of a thousand projects.

and make sure that you're continually
training your team to be strong design

leaders to be able to activate the
thought of Not only design thinking, but

the thought of design linking, because
for me, that's how you deliver design

excellence within an organization.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: Excellent.

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: Excellent.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: so much

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: Excellent.

Well, thanks

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: Andrew.

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538:
much for coming on, Andrew.

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: words,

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: Um,

kevin_1_02-21-2025_090538: Thanks a lot.

andrew-_1_02-21-2025_090538: No problem.