Product Powwow

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845:
Welcome to the podcast Tom.

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845:
Great to be here, Kevin.

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: So we've
known each other for eons, right?

But, we've only recently had a proper
chat about what you actually do for a day

job these days, which is system design.

And when we talked about it recently,
I was quite struck by how clearly

you talked about a topic that I've
always been quite wary about, for

reasons I'm not so familiar with.

I'm not totally sure I understand,
but I guess every time I'd opened

a book or opened an article on
the topic of systems design, it

seemed to get really complicated
and really jargony really quickly.

and you managed to avoid all that.

So I thought it'd be good to dig
into it a bit more on the podcast.

So why don't you start by just
letting us know how you got

into the systems design game.

how did you start and
how did you end up here?

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: that's,
yeah, where did all this come from?

I was a geeky kid.

I used to draw maps on my bedroom table.

Cause I was always obsessed by
mapping things, drawing imaginary

islands, all that kind of thing.

And then thought I'd go off and
study engineering at university.

Cause I thought it was design
and it turned out it wasn't.

And then I went off to art
school and discovered this other

thing, which was a kind of more
holistic way of seeing things.

And that I think was the kind
of beginning of my journey.

I think you've probably, you've been
on a very similar journey, Kevin.

and, I met you at that kind of point when
we were in those different directions.

So when I finished art school, I
in lots and lots of projects, which

were what happens when you put a
designer into a complex situation.

So I was involved in projects, which
were, how can you improve welfare of

farm animals using a design approach?

How can you reduce the amount of plastic?

Waste in horticulture using a design
approach and very quickly those

projects they were they became about
visualizing something very complicated

and The kind of design role in it
was always trying to bring together

in order to solve those problems.

They're wicked problems It's what you
know, Dick Buchanan calls a wicked

problem you have to assemble this kind of
collective brain of people with expertise

and In my mind, design's really good
at acting as the kind of facilitator,

as the bridge, as the visualizer,
design's got process, design's got

methods, and so it quite comfortably
into that world of challenging problems.

And in order to understand
problems, you have to look up a

little bit and see the system.

Designers always tend to look down
a little bit and see the product or

service, but in order to understand
the system, explain it, get everybody

to Get involved in the challenge.

You've got to visualize it.

So I think that's where
that journey began.

And, fast forward X years, and, I've,
had all sorts of different roles.

Gone down an academic path, so I did a
PhD looking at what happens when you put a

designer into a business, and what impact
does it have on innovation and so on.

But it's always been, Part of my
practice, if you like, in all the roles

I've had, that kind of seeing the bigger
picture and facilitating people through

a discussion around the bigger picture.

So I think that's where my
interest in systems has come from.

But I completely understand
where you're coming from.

I, I've got a of unread
systems books on my bookshelf.

I dip into them and like you, analogies
to radiator systems in your house

and so on, they're interesting, but
they're they're not terribly inspiring.

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: Indeed, I
understand the use of a system map once

you're in the depths of a project in
terms of just getting into the, the

topic, there's nothing like assistance
diagram to, to make me glaze over, I have

to say, but, that's probably just me.

now.

Systems, design crops up in so
many different domains that, it

comes up in biology, it comes up in
climate change, it comes up in urban

planning and economics, software
engineering, so many different areas

Is there a commonly
held method or approach?

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: Yeah.

it's like asking, is there a commonly
held method in design thinking?

And probably for as many people who use
that term, there's a kind of variety of

different methods that each one uses.

So it's similar type of territory,
but in answer to your question,

whatever sector you work in.

And everybody kind of works in a
slightly different sector and has

that kind of contextual knowledge
of the sector they work in.

I do a lot of work in healthcare now.

So in healthcare, are, yeah,
there's lots of systems in play.

And if you, use the right mapping
approaches, you can begin to

see them and make sense of them.

if you're in a corporate world,
there will be systems in play.

They might might not be immediately
apparent to you, but if you use some of

the kind of system mapping methodologies,
they will in a sense appear.

yeah, that those things do exist.

so wherever, whatever sector you're in
that there's a system to be mapped out

terms of how you create those maps.

Yeah, there are there's a whole series of
different methodologies and approaches,

but in principle, They are looking,
you're mapping out flows of things.

It might be flows of people, flows of
materials, flows of value, flows of money.

you're mapping them out as they go
from the start of the system through

the system and back out again.

you might be mapping relationships
between people, loops, causal loops,

what's influencing something else.

you might be peering into the system,
looking at it through different

lenses, looking at, what are the
events that we can see on the surface?

What's lying behind those events?

What are the trends?

what are the structures that
are influencing the system?

What are the mental models in the system?

So that idea of paths, relationships,
and Some kind of hierarchy.

They're the three principle
ways of peering into a system,

exactly how you map it.

There's so many different kinds of
approaches to mapping these things,

just as there's no unified approach
for doing service design maps is that

everyone does in a slightly different way.

And.

In a way, a surface design map is
an abstraction of reality, isn't it?

And that's what a systems map is.

So I don't think it's really, books
make it really complicated, but I

don't think it's that far out of
reach of a design mind, a systems map.

it's just looking at that a little
bit more than we normally do.

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: Yeah.

Yeah, I think the designers, there's
many different sorts of designers, but

the design, if we, Broadly say designers
have come from our kind of industrial

design or UX type of background, most
designers tend to be quite detail focused,

a lot of it's around crafting details
of touch points and what have you.

And, there's definitely going
up to a more helicopter view.

I guess there as well, but
you mentioned, service design.

So while you've mentioned that, is system
design just another name for service

design or is there, what's the difference,

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: well,
there is a difference, I think.

I think the way, the easiest way to
explain it is I if you think of your

system, it's like a cobweb, right?

So you, we know, we'll know
what a cobweb looks like.

And if you're looking at the service,
you're looking at an individual

strand in the cobweb, usually.

and the service designer at
that strand and maps it out and

optimizes it and improves it.

but if you're taking a systems
view, you are looking at all of the

strands that a kind of organization
might be running and you're you

are, getting that kind of visual
overview of what they all look like.

and then you might then kind of.

zoom in on one strand one kind
of service and kind of make those

alterations But before you do it,
you're thinking well, actually

Where should I put my efforts?

Where should I put my resource?

What is the aim of this system?

Which strands should we look at?

and you are a service designer just
playing around with the strand you there's

a there's risks in what you're doing.

So you know, if you imagine pulling that
tiny little bit of the cobweb, that, that

kind of strand, it distorts the cobweb.

So if you don't understand the system
as a service designer, how do you know

that you're actually, what you're doing
is not disrupting the whole system?

How do you know that you're actually, what
you're doing is, The best possible thing.

How do you know what's going on
upstream and downstream from you?

So I think that's the
relationship between the two.

It's the service designer.

looks at the tree and the system
designer looks at the wood.

So you can see the wood for
the trees kind of thing.

It's that kind of relationship between the
two things, obviously they blur there's

a kind of blurring between the two, but
it's just that kind of business of looking

up and seeing the bigger system, which
I think is the key differential, some

of the kind of mapping approaches that
there's kind of similarities to them.

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: but the,
I think a system designer might.

Come back and say, system designers
also look at the backstage about

how all these journeys are enabled.

Is the system really the backstage of
a service that the, the infrastructure

that's, that's enables a service.

in your, I know there's lots of
different sorts of system, but in your

context, say that, a healthcare system.

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: Um,
it could be that's not terribly

helpful answer to you, is it?

But, when you do a service design map, you
have, the line of visibility, don't you?

And below the line of visibility,
you've got your backstage activity.

So you're in your service design
map, you're mapping backstage

activities, part of your service,
but you're also mapping what's above

the surface as well, the touch points
and, what the user interacts with.

Same way when you're doing
system design, you could map.

the system as it's experienced by the
user above the surface, or you could map

what's going on underneath the surface
in terms of how the system runs, that you

can go through exactly the same layering.

In the work I do in healthcare, what
I do, which to me as a designer is

obvious, but it's quite revolutionary in
healthcare, is I map out very often with

kind of the people I'm working with, what
does their healthcare system look like?

in terms of the of all the patient
pathways in that kind of particular

healthcare system that's looking
for a kind of design input.

So we create what really effectively
looks like a kind of tube map.

It's the best way of describing it.

It's a kind of, where the kind of
Piccadilly line is the cardiology line,

the Jubilee line is the respiratory line.

There's the circle line
going around in the middle.

There's zone five, which is
where all the general GPs are.

Zone one is the center of the city.

That's where the kind of main hospital is.

We can create this kind of map of
all of these relationships as seen by

the service user, who is the patient.

And that's a slightly different
representation to what a service

designer would have created.

Service designer would probably have
focused on the Piccadilly line or one

line, but The system map of the same
thing is that kind of whole tube map.

I, it's difficult kind of
vocalizing this on a podcast.

I

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: Indeed.

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: with a piece
of paper and draw it out for you.

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: Indeed.

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: that I
think is the, in my mind, that is

the difference between the two.

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: just to bring,
things down to, a bit more concrete level

can you give us some examples of what good
looks like in, systems design, we can all

imagine in a vague abstract way, some kind
of a system working inputs and outputs and

different paths and different criteria for
taking different directions and things.

But when you're assessing a, say
the current state of a system or

maybe pointing at an exemplar.

What, what are some examples
of, good system design?

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: Good system
design is, where everybody in the

system where they are in the system
and what their relationship is to

other kind of activities in the system.

good system design is where, the resources
are placed in the right place to make that

system work as effectively as possible.

Good system design is where people have
agreed what is the aim of the system.

and good to system design is where
there is probably kind of continuous

improvement and innovation in the system.

And, the innovation is
not just in one place.

It's a kind of coordinated portfolio
of change across the system.

a sense, that's how it all
sounds like common sense, but in

reality, that doesn't, that's not
how most systems actually work.

So again, going back to the healthcare
example, which is one we all know, very

well, because we all experience it.

healthcare doesn't work terribly well.

As a piece of system design, because, we
have primary care, which is GPs, which

is what you experience in the community.

And then you can get referred to
secondary care, which is hospitals.

And those two kind of worlds
are not terribly connected.

They're not running on
the same digital system.

no one in secondary care really
knows where you've come from.

they don't know really where they're
discharging to you to, so they don't

know how to get you out of the hospital
if you've got particular needs.

So you end up staying in
hospital longer than you need to.

Did you really have to
come to hospital anyway?

Could you not have been treated at home?

So you can see in, in that thing we
experienced day to day, the healthcare

system, you can see all sorts of
ways in which that is failing as a

system, because it's not being looked
after terribly well at system level.

and, heads are not being knocked together
in terms of aligning how it works, and I

think the same thing in a corporate world.

is probably not quite as complex
as health care in many ways.

and, it might have, there might be
more alignment in how it works, but

I suspect actually, even in a kind
of quite sophisticated corporate

culture where you have silos of people
and expertise, you have disconnect.

And that's where kind of
understanding what the system

looks like is really important.

really powerful.

So are examples of good would
look like and what bad looks like.

to me, the classic example is in
healthcare, to go back to that one

is, we all know, the politicians
obsession four hour waiting times in

accidents and emergency departments,
it crops up on the news all the time.

We switch the news on and we
see ambulances queuing outside

accident emergency departments.

And we all say, Ah, isn't the NHS broken?

And then people come along and they
try to, find a solution to that.

And I've been to healthcare trusts where
of the solutions are things like, let's

build a tent in the car park outside
the accident emergency department, and

then we can offload patients the tent.

And then that will mean the
ambulances can get away.

And then somebody else comes along
and says, let's buy more ambulances.

And we'll have more ambulances
dropping off people outside the

accident emergency department.

The reality is those two things.

building the tent and buy more ambulances
no difference whatsoever to ambulance

discharge times and the four hour wait
because the people are not understanding

the bigger system and how it works and
you know what's going on downstream and

upstream from that particular point.

and what are the mental models
of people actually going into the

accident emergency department?

So that's, yeah, that, that's where
systems thinking comes in, I think.

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: have you
got any examples in healthcare that you

point at that have done it really well?

maybe they haven't got their more
recently developed economies that

have built healthcare systems more
recently and got less legacy issues

or something, but I don't know, maybe
there's something great going on in

Scandinavia or something, but did you
point at, any particular healthcare

services as, that's what good looks like?

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: yeah,
I'll give you one little,

really simple little example.

I was in Norway about 18 months
ago, running workshops in, or up

in the top of Norway, in Tromso.

before I went along, I did my kind of
into the Norwegian healthcare system.

And one, one thing really struck me.

Whenever I work in the UK.

And I ask people, what is the
aim of your healthcare system?

They always say to me, ah, Tom, it's
right care, right time, right place.

That's a fundamental driver of the NHS.

When you ask the same question of
the Norwegian healthcare system,

they say, yeah, the aim of the system
is right care, right time, right

place, and educate the patient.

just by adding in that extra Three words
into the whole overall aim of the system.

It completely changes the way the system
works So, you know when you go and see a

gp the gp gives you the right care right
time right place but also says Kevin,

how can we prevent this happening again?

what can we learn from this?

How can I act as a kind
of educator for you?

And then when you go to your outpatients
appointment, you get given the leaflet

about how to avoid this happening again.

So the whole system has got that
kind of built in thing that we

will empower you the patient.

Another little thing about
the, this kind of Scandinavian

healthcare system in the UK.

You as the patient have no access
to your health care record.

it's a, every time you go to the
doctor's, someone makes a note about

you and writes some notes, but you
never know what's in that drawer.

It's not in a digital folder, you can't
get it downloaded onto your phone.

But in Scandinavia, you are the
owner of your health care record.

So you, get told what
the test results are.

You get told you've scored 6.

7 for the test, the blood
test or whatever, the last

time you had your blood test.

And so you you're empowered as a
kind of service user in the system.

but just shifting the system
dynamics like that has a profound

impact on how the system works.

And that's where kind of
understanding the power of systems.

I think it's really important.

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: so that the
kind of main benefit of that is if one

of your main themes that you mentioned
a few minutes ago about what a good

system looks like, it's one that's
optimized or efficient or whatever.

I guess that, that educating the,
the patient helps to make the

whole system more efficient because
the next time it happens or what

the further they go through the
system, it'll run more smoothly.

Is that the

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: Yeah, it's

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: benefit?

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: what's wrong
with you, but in, even as educated

adults, we all, we know when we
experienced that kind of complex

thing, which is called healthcare, we,
there's a kind of learned helplessness

to it because we're not empowered.

We don't know as much as we should know
about our condition or our situation.

So you're empowering people.

You're giving them knowledge.

You're giving them agency.

Inside the system, you're altering the
power balance and that we're going down

a bit of a healthcare rabbit warren here,
but it applies to, I think it applies

to anything that we might be working
in, even if we're in a corporate world,

really understanding what is the aim,
what is the aim of the corporation?

Sure it's here to make money, but
what, do, what is it we're trying to

do and how does that kind of influence
everything we are delivering it?

It's going back to that kind of.

It's just aligning around that, having
a system aligned around that kind of

strategic of the organization, I think.

So that, that's where, perhaps
that's an interesting, that you

have strategy, you have design and
perhaps systems, the thing in the

middle, which kind of helps deliver.

things across the organization.

There's a thought.

It's a, it's this kind of representation
that we can then use as a kind

of platform to solve the problem.

So we, we create the
boundary object, we create

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: Just on
that top, just before we move on

to the next step, that's, how was
that understood before you come

along and help them do that map?

Is it just in people's heads?

Is it

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: just a,

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845:
in a document somewhere?

Is it

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: usually, Most
organizations, find it astounding,

Kevin, how we work, we tend to work
in written documents and spreadsheets

and, sometimes in an organization,
you'll see an organigram or some kind of

representation of what the organization
work looks like or what its flows are,

but really rarely are there kind of

of how the organization works.

usually when I'm working in healthcare,
it's about creating an ecosystem map

of healthcare pathways, or, it might be
relationships between stakeholders in a

different type of organization, but those
visual representations of relationships

and pathways don't really tend to exist.

So I come along and start with a, work
with a kind of small group of people to

create a draft representation and then
we roll that out with we usually do it

online in Miro and so on but we roll that
out with more and more groups of people

in the organization to Get buy in to
that's what the that's what the challenge

looks like and we all add a little bit
Everyone adds in a little corner into

it So it's like embroidering a kind of
rug or something you You slowly develop

this visualization of what it looks like.

So everybody then agrees that's what the
thing looks like that we're trying to

tackle and everybody's bought into it
because they've had their opportunity

to hack something as the designer.

I have to, work out what the rules
are going to be for visualizing this.

it's quite simple things, what
colors are we going to use?

How do we show a stakeholder?

How do we, what does a
line mean on my system map?

What does an arrow mean?

So we have to I usually construct
some kind of legend, if you like.

And then we use that as a set
of rules to visualize the thing.

And it, it's a, it's an iterative process.

It needs tidying up.

But anyway, that's really.

Not that different to what you'd expect.

What we do in design when we're doing
a service user journey map, because,

before you've actually mapped out the
service user journey, you don't really

know what it's going to look like.

You don't know how long the piece
of paper is going to be, and

you don't know how many layers
they're going to be in your map.

You sometimes think, Oh, we have to
need to have, we need to split our touch

points into five different categories.

as a designer, you're always
altering your kind of mapping

methodology, the same for doing this.

So that's step number one.

Step number two is then to let's
all sit down and work out what

are the challenges in the system.

that's where you can take this
kind of system thinking approach.

What are the events?

What are the things we see day
to day that kind of flag up a

challenge for our way in A and E.

We then I then say to people,
what dates do we have?

What do we know?

What are the trends in this system?

What's going up?

What's going down?

what we know about the kind of
underlying structures and what do

we know about the mindsets that.

have created this system
in the first place.

we can you can get people to review
what's going on at the moment from

all sorts of different perspectives,
that's gives you this kind of rich

understanding, and then you get into
right, what are some of the solutions?

And, there might be a design solution.

It might be, let's re rework that
service, but the, the interventions you

might make into a system and improve it.

that, that you're probably looking
to for a portfolio of interventions

in different parts of the system.

of them will be familiar design things,
but it might be, let's shift the policy

on that or let's When an educational
campaign in that corner of the system,

so it's perhaps a little bit broader
than we normally think of when we're

coming up for a design solution.

And then you think, how are you going
to roll out those interventions.

And there I use things like,
how might we statements for

framing, framing those problems.

So in a sense, I'm just I'm
just following a design process.

It's, if you want to call it a double
diamond, we do discovery, we do

define the problems, we do develop
solutions, we do implement solutions.

So I'm starting with a systems map,
the boundary objects, but I'm just

running that double diamond design
process if that's the one people like,

at a kind of systems level rather than
down at the product or service level.

that's where system thinking
meets design thinking, I think.

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: great?

And if it's anything like the service
design and experience design work I've

done, just that first step of mapping
the current state in one place that

multiple silos can see and import onto
and, discuss and capture their parts

of the process of what they think's
critical from their point of view.

It's just half the battle won, isn't it?

That you've got, you've got one
statement, if you like, capture.

of the current state that you
can then use to, identify, points

of weakness or whatever, or
opportunities for improvement.

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: yeah, I'd

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: and then
do you iterate on that map or do you

tend to use one, that initial map to
capture pain points on all the rest

of it, and then go Completely re do
a completely new map when you start

coming up with the, the new design.

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: if we dip
into system design terminology,

the existing map is called
as is as the system as it is.

So it's called as is, then you
can, then if you want to to, you

can draw out a perfect system
and that's your to be system.

but interestingly, when we're thinking
about system redesign, it's usually in

most systems, it's very difficult to
Start with a blank page and actually

redesign a system from scratch.

You're always, usually you want
to move the system on, but you

usually do that by system shift.

it'll always be through probably some kind
of portfolio of iterative improvements,

but the sort of to be system, your perfect
system can act as a kind of pole star.

to guide you.

So going back to your question,
no, we we create the, as is system

map, whatever the system is.

and then we annotate it.

we use it as a kind of something
that we can annotate to mark up

where the challenges are, and so on.

But then you can actually run a
session where you say, what would

the perfect system look like?

And most systems, interestingly, people
have never really been given that

opportunity to actually visualize.

a better way of doing things and
although it's Something which is as I

said very difficult to actually enact
because you can't close the existing

system You can't close the nhs down
and then reopen the new nhs on monday.

It's not it's too complicated Actually
giving people The, empowering them to

actually think of the perfect system.

It does shift the way they
think about things, actually.

It can be empowering.

The other thing I find is that if you
co create the map, it's, people find

that, the psychology of that is, and
you'll have found that in your own

practice, the psychology of that is
hugely empowering for people when they

can actually see what it is they actually
do and communicate that to other people.

They take ownership of their,
roles in a really interesting way.

And, it, the psychology of it is really
engaging when you're working with

a group of people to give them that
sense of ownership of what they do.

people love contributing what they
do to the system map because they

love to see themselves in the map.

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: That's the thing.

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: going
back to the, as is map, how often,

do people go, yeah, that's right.

We've got it.

That's how it works.

and how often do you get people,
does it really work like that?

other surprises that come up
for people when you actually

put it down in a visual way?

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah surprises all the time.

And again, go back to the healthcare
thing because that's the theme really and

that's the thing which is relatable to all
of us, I've had, done, diabetic systems,

all the rest of it, where the consultant
has turned around and says, I've been

working, I've been working in this service
for 20 years, and I had no idea Yeah.

That the patients had to wait that
long in the outpatients clinic and

I had no idea that it took them so
long to navigate their way through

the hospital car parks and, navigate
their way through the system.

And I had no idea that the, the GPs
didn't know how to refer into my clinic.

So that there's often huge surprises for
people who are working inside the system

because quite often we kind of work within
a silo and we generally don't know what's

going on to the left and right of us,
even when we're, Quite senior in a system.

It can be particularly when the
system is quite complicated.

So it happens all the time.

there's really interesting revelations.

particularly, if you're co creating
with a large group of people who

don't necessarily meet each other
and connect very often, you'll get

all sorts of revelations coming
from that sort of discussion.

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
Okay.

So we've covered step two, which
is mapping and, in this five step

process, step number three would be to
then start exploring the challenges.

And there are many ways that
we can, think about challenges.

A very practical thing we can do
is, if the system is at a human

system, as we can get humans to
walk their way through the system.

And one of the great things about having
a system map is like creating the board.

For the board game, you can almost
put peg figures around the system and

actually then, just based on real human
experience, begin to understand what

the challenges are, because often it's
humans who join up the system, that join

up with the kind of silos in the boxes.

So their experience is really key.

Obviously, you can't map
every single element.

Human journey that ever was.

So you might need to put people
into genres and use personas and so

on, but that's an incredibly useful
way of uncovering challenges, but

also the challenges experienced
by, people working in the system.

It's also really useful to think about
those challenges through a kind of.

Some people call it kind
of an iceberg model.

You look at the events, the things
that we spot in the system day to

day, but then you dig below the
surface and say, what are the trends

below those, behind those events?

see events on telly, on the news, but
in a sense, really what's important is

that going up or is that going down?

There's been a terrible stabbing
somewhere, but is the rate

of stabbing going up or the
rate of stabbing going down?

That's a really important thing.

So we can start looking at data and
what data tells us about challenges.

we can then look at the system
and say, what are the systems

and structures behind the system?

And what are the challenges
with those systems?

Are they not talking to each other?

And then you can think about, what
are the challenges that, what's the

baggage everybody's carrying around?

What their mental models.

So we can look at day to day events.

We can look at experiences, we can peer
into the system through other lenses,

but we get a really good sense of
the challenges, the shared challenges

in the system, incredibly important.

We then, obviously, we need to go back
and perhaps refine what's the aim of

the system based on that information.

So it's an iterative process.

we then go into the next step four,
which is, okay, that's the system.

Those are the challenges within it.

Let's now ideate.

And, develop some sense of
what the improvements could be.

And rarely is there one silver bullet.

There's rarely one thing that you can do
to the system which will transform it.

You'll have to make
variety of interventions.

You might need to sequence them.

and some of them might be, useful
piece of terminology is adaptive.

They might be where you empower a
group of people in the system, give

them an aim, and they, of generate
solutions in their part of the system.

So almost from the bottom up, some of
them might be transformative where you're

a bit more like a Monty Python foot
and you, say, this is going to change.

We're going to shift policy here.

We're going to, change
something at a high level.

So there could be adaptive
changes or transformative changes.

again, if we're looking at adaptive
changes, one of the things I found

really powerful is to, Almost kind of
these are challenges in the system.

How can we overcome them with, I I'm a
great fan of using how might we statements

to create almost little mini briefs.

So how might we have this impact
on the system for the benefit of

these people to deliver this impact?

So we're not we're not necessarily.

Coming up with the solution
there on there at that moment.

But we're setting up a series of mini
briefs for people to go away and explore.

But anyway, can generate big
portfolio of, improvements.

They then need to be sifted.

and so we need to do evaluation on them,
just in perhaps the same way, but that's

a design, that's a design challenge.

what are the criteria for making choices?

I'm quite obsessed by
criteria for making choices.

when we think about design, we tend to.

I think always over focus on the creative
bit coming up with lots of ideas, but

the clever bit and design is always
how do you filter them down into.

so that's where you've got
to have really good criteria.

we we generate our solutions that way.

and then we, hopefully we then have a kind
of priority list of things we're going

to do, but it's always a list of things.

There might be five or six interventions
we're going to make across the system.

takes you into kind of final
step, which is delivering impact.

And, if we're taking a system view,
usually we are, We need to deliver a

change in a slightly different way to
what we do day to day in the organization.

So we've got to choreograph and
curate, perhaps new interdisciplinary

teams in the organization to take.

Ownership of a Might We or a
particular part of the system.

you're probably going to have to start
spinning several groups like that.

So what you're really interested
in is collective impact.

And, that means you've got to have
a kind of framework in place in

the organization to, enact that.

And there's some really interesting
writing on collective impact.

I can give you some references for that.

Kevin to put in the show notes,
that kind of model of change.

So it's it's a, what is your model of
change in the organization's key thing?

Okay.

So those are the, those that, that,
that kind of rather abstract, but

those are the stages that I work
for, the steps I work through.

kevin_1_02-17-2025_141941: Great stuff.

Couple of questions on that, Tom.

you, I forget which step now, but
one of them, you were saying, you

bring in, data and I guess there's
a lot more data around now than

there was sort of 10, 15 years ago.

any changes in your practice around
that in terms of how you, that the

levels of data that you can, You can
expect to be tracked in the system

and also, how adept people are at
analyzing it for your purposes.

how do you integrate those
insights into your process,

your workshops or what have you.

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
Yeah.

usually, one of the things I do
is once you've got the system map,

you can then You can then ask it
the question, what data would I

like to know about this system map?

So if my system map is mapping flows
of material or flows of people or flows

of resources, you very quickly ask the
question, ooh, how much resource is moving

from point A to point B, and then you
usually have to go away and ask people

who are the kind of owners of the data,
ooh, can you give me some data on this?

And then you try and bring all of that
data in from these different sources, and

usually it's a little bit incompatible.

there's usually quite a lot of
data on one bit of the system,

but not another bit of the system.

Depends on what the system's tracking.

But then it throws up this question.

It becomes almost like one of
the how might we questions.

How might we collect data in a slightly
different way so it's actually meaningful?

actually can drive decisions.

But data is fascinating, I think.

And I, again, it's the kind
of slight, art side of me.

I always call it, people in data
hate this, but I always call

it painting data onto the map.

I almost see it, I do, but I do see
it like painting, it's like you have a

painting, you have a kind of sketch and
then you put the colors in, but to me,

that's what happens when you map data onto
one of these maps, it brings it alive.

and, It becomes quite interesting.

And, that's where, if you have all of the
data in your system app, you're coming

into the world of systems engineer wing,
where you can create a sort of digital

twin of the system to you know, to model
changes and so on, then, that's way

above my pay grade, but that's what,
a systems engineer will do for you.

kevin_1_02-17-2025_141941: And I
imagine teams will maybe reevaluate

what metrics and KPIs they should be
focusing on once they've got this done.

holistic system view of
their, where they're working.

Is that right?

That, that they'll sometimes realize
that actually we should be measuring

this and not this or whatever.

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
again, I keep harking back to it,

but if we kind of stick with the
healthcare example, the classic.

The classic issue is when you ask
people about data in healthcare, what

they usually have is they have a huge
amount of information about flow data.

So they can tell you 1, 000 patients
went through that clinic and 800 patients

left that clinic and went to the second
clinic and of those 350 went for x rays.

So there's usually, you can usually
piece together the flow rate data,

but that's all that tells you is.

much water is flowing
through my hot water system?

It doesn't actually tell me whether the
radiators are hot or cold it just it's

just a dial that says yeah The water is
whizzing around the system really well and

the most important thing in health care
is you know What actually is the outcome?

But what is the quality of that
for that particular person?

were they cured as a result of doing
that and did they live for another?

10 weeks or deliver another
10 years kind of thing.

So the system's mapping lots
of flow data, but it doesn't

really give the outcomes data.

And I suspect that's super true.

if you can take that straight back
into a corporate environment, you

will have lots of data performance
data, which is to do with.

Yeah, tracking the numbers through
the system, but perhaps an awful

lot less, which is perhaps a
little bit more qualitative.

but it sparks that entire conversation,
which is a really important one.

and, in healthcare, that's a
massive conversation at the

moment because everyone's looking
at value based healthcare now.

One of the things about data I always
find really interesting is, how often

people are not looking at future trends.

in any, again, almost in any scenario
sector, you can, once you've got

the system map, you can say, is that
going up or is that going down and how

quickly and, this, I think this comes
right the way back into your bread and

butter in terms of, the research work
that you do, you're very interested

in kind of future scenarios and
what's going up and what's going down.

And quite often I find people
are quite blind to that.

They're usually dealing with
the here and now rather than

future proofing their system.

And, in healthcare, you can see that in
black and white in front of our eyes.

the number of people with multiple
long term conditions is going up.

We've got an aging population,
the number of 80 year olds is

going up by 5 percent per year.

we will peek out on that, but the system's
not itself for those quite radical

shifts, which are entirely predictable.

if you're in another sector, you can,
there's huge amount of data about trends.

Some of it might be a little bit
more speculative because it's

not quite so demographic, you can
really bring that, that trends

data into a system map, I think.

And then it becomes really interesting.

kevin_1_02-17-2025_141941: we've
drawn lots of parallels between

systems design and other types of
design like industrial UX or whatever.

And I guess, one thing that's common
to both of those is a big emphasis

on testing and validation, testing
prototypes and to validate either

certain hypotheses or the whole
product offering or service offering.

as you mentioned earlier.

You can't really shut down the NHS and
try something new out for a few months and

then switch back again if it doesn't work.

so with something as massive and complex
and unwieldy as a health system, how do

you How do you validate, system design
interventions, as you call it, or do

you just, or are some of them, you can,
it's just a change of process, so you

can just try it out for a bit and if it
doesn't work, go back to the old one.

how do you address that sort of test
and learn, approach in your context?

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
Yeah, really interesting question.

Interestingly, in health care is
actually one thing is really good at.

It's in a way, it's quite good at
quality improvement, incremental

improvement from the bottom up.

So it has a kind of paradigm in health
care on a good day, which is it's

inherited from lean thinking and quality.

Quality thinking in industry, so you know
what happens in a Toyota car factory,

kevin_1_02-17-2025_141941: And how long's
that been embedded in their culture?

Is that's been around for a long time,

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
Yeah, probably about the

last 20 years actually.

kevin_1_02-17-2025_141941: right?

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
so it's Because it's and, there's two

really interesting things about that.

Obviously, one of the really
important thing is safety.

So patient safety always takes precedence.

So not allowed to do something which
is going to compromise patient safety.

So there's a lot of kind
of attention to that.

a lot of mission critical engineering
that use those approaches,

you know, Royce aero engines.

It's very important.

It doesn't drop out of the sky.

and so you you can't make an alteration,
which is going to be mission critical.

So there's that kind of methodology.

But inside that as well, there is
this kind of very well defined.

approach, which is
called a test of change.

So you you go in and you will
prototype the alternative system almost

perhaps at quite a localized level.

It might be for a period of time.

You might say for that, we're
going to rerun how that clinic

works for five or six weeks, and
we'll do it as a test of change.

We'll gather the data in the before,
and we will quite systematically

see what the impact is.

And actually, I think that's quite
interesting, what happens in CalSci.

They're really good at doing that.

On a good day, they're
very good at doing that.

And that's the test of change.

So it is a kind of form
of kind of prototyping.

suspect that in the corporate
world, I do a lot of work in

higher education and universities.

Universities are appalling at doing that.

They can't, they don't
know how to do that.

that's not an inbuilt kind
of improvement methodology.

And I actually, I think in the
corporate world, I, when I've worked

in with more commercial companies
or in the third sector, that doesn't

really exist as a kind of mindset
that's how we're going to do things.

and I think that's super
interesting because, the, design

thinking has a bias for action.

It does imply that you create
a lo fi prototype of something

to test something out.

And.

think we can probably do far more of that
way of working when we, if you take that

systems view in, in a kind of, in a design
project and find really not necessarily

mocking up a, it's not, some of these
things are not changed where you're going

to change a kind of thing like an app
or a service or a product, but, just to

change the way a little bit, run a little
bit of the process and isolate in a way.

So that kind of test of
change model is the way

kevin_1_02-17-2025_141941: Does
that, you mentioned before, I think,

I think you called it adaptive
and transformational change.

I can see how the continual improvement
mindset works for the adaptive kind of

change, but what about the transformative?

Does that, do you not need to
approach things slightly differently

if you're going to make a bigger
Monty Python thought kind of change?

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
yeah, no, you do.

And I think you need to that might
take you to a slightly different,

a slightly different approach.

I saw a fantastic talk last week
actually by Anna Wicher from, PDR

down in Cardiff, and she's a policy
designer in a way, policy is a kind

of form of transformative change.

And Anna was talking about,
how you can take a design

approach, designing policies.

Super interesting.

And, you can.

that's about who's going to be
affected by that transformative change.

Who are the use?

And effectively, they're
the users of the change.

and how they're going to be affected.

You can take you can take
a design approach to that.

And you can rehearse what the change is
going to be and almost build know, a paper

prototype of what it's going to look like
and then, take it through a process of

user engagement to try and refine the
change, refine the policy and so on.

Because, yeah, quite a lot of
transformative change ultimately is

a policy change in an organization.

Yeah, so I think you can, but it's
probably a slightly different process.

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: just
shifting sideways a little bit.

where would you say the craft or the
expertise lies in systems design?

Because often designers define
themselves by what they put their

10, 000 hours into really honing.

I'm interested to know where you
would think the system design.

Craft lies

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: Yeah.

I love this question.

Kevin, because obviously
everybody's always trying to

commoditize you into a playbook.

So they say, Oh, that's very clever, Tom.

Can I, what's the playbook on that?

So you can, you can distill that
process down into a playbook.

But for me, there are two pieces of craft.

So the first piece of craft
the facilitation craft.

So I'm kind of, I'm doing the system
design thing, but I'm also facilitating

a process and I think we really do
underestimate the craft in facilitation.

I know you do a lot facilitation.

I know you're an excellent facilitator
and you write about it a lot, so it's

something you're quite passionate about.

my facilitation expertise
comes through 10, 000 hours.

it's like theatres of thinking, isn't it?

Facilitation to be an
excellent facilitator.

You've got to design the props.

You've got to do the choreography.

You've got to, organize the stage.

You've got to, you've got
to organize the drinks.

the interval, you've got to be
the narrator, you've got to be the

critique, you've got to take the
photographs, you've got to, you've

got to deal with the hecklers.

and you don't, you
can't do that instantly.

that's learned through practice.

and we don't actually, we don't, in
design school or whatever, we don't

pay anything like enough attention
to that skillset facilitation and

how you learn that through practice.

So that's piece of craft
number one piece of

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: There's
a mindset shift as well, isn't it?

Because I think most designers are used
to being the problem solver, right?

That a problem has been given to them to
solve, and it's their job to solve it.

But when you take that facilitation role
on, it's your job to get the team you're

working with To solve the problem it's,
you're herding a team, over a bunch

of different, barriers or whatever to
get to that solution because they've

got the knowledge and expertise to do
it that you couldn't do it yourself.

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: Exactly.

Yeah.

And whenever I work in healthcare,
I say, I always say, I'm not

a healthcare professional.

I'm here as a facilitator.

So I always frame myself as a facilitator
and I, to me, that is a design superpower.

No, you're welcome.

That is a design superpower.

that's something that designers,
if you, Get your mind around it.

Design is brilliant at it,
because design works in that way.

Design has a process, whatever,
the convergent, divergent process.

And it is about idea generation.

It's about synthesis.

It's, there's so many kinds of skills
that come in that design world, which

other disciplines don't really have.

that's where, that's design's
role in the collective brain.

if I do something second piece of
craft really important and that is the

building the system maps you know that
I said I used to like mapping things

when I was a kid and all the rest of it.

So I've always been in that mind of kind
of mapping things out, visualizing things.

And that is a craft.

How do how do you have the confidence to
put your pen down on the paper, draw the

line, tell somebody that's what the line
represents, bring them into the story,

and then put the other lines in place,
and a huge amount of the craft for me for

that is having a conversation with people
and seeing the structure of the problem.

that to me is a craft, really spotting
the structure, and then working out

what are the set of rules that we're
going to use to visualize that problem.

that's a craft, I think.

So it's the, that's the one piece
of craft, and then the facilitation

is the other piece of craft.

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: Yeah.

I think that structure is really
important because when I've done,

whether it's service blueprints or
whatever that there's no, there isn't

a template, you've got to, you've got
to understand the nature of the beast

that you're dealing with and then come
up with the best way of representing it.

it for your purpose, haven't you?

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845:
out the standard template.

You've always got to go in there and the
conversation, then come back with the

template which will fits the problem.

So it's exactly the same as that.

And I think that that's a kind
of, that's a craft you can learn.

Really interesting thing.

I used to teach at the management
school at the University of St.

Andrews.

And one of the little challenges I used to
get, I used to get Harvard Business Review

case studies of innovation in companies.

There's loads of them.

And I used to give them to these
kind of management school students.

And I used to say, here's
a piece of A3 paper.

read that case study and then
draw me, what does, how does that

innovation system in that company work?

And they would agonize over it, but they'd
all come out with this kind of visual map.

we'd look at how does General
Electric do reverse innovation?

There's that fantastic Roberto Verganti
wrote this fantastic Harvard business

review case study about how Alessi works.

how does Zara fast fashion works?

You can It's written down on the
page in words, and you get that

kind of, that written description.

But once you've read the written
description, you can draw it out as a

set of boxes and a set of relationships,
and I think that's the kind of beginning

of learning how to do that craft.

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: I wonder
if there's a third one, maybe it's

not craft, maybe it's just expertise,
but, I would have thought, domain

knowledge is pretty important.

I, could you really go into say a
software engineering environment

and run the same process?

Wouldn't you need to know lots
of the concepts, lots of the,

vernacular, Lots of quite detailed
context for you to be able to run

that process in a particular domain.

tom_1_02-07-2025_150845: Yeah.

I think you're absolutely right.

Sector know is key.

'cause you've gotta
understand the vocabulary.

and again, I do a lot of work in
healthcare, so I'm very, healthcare's,

quite mystical in terms of, its
concepts and structures and acronyms.

Interestingly, what I would say to you,
and I'm this is just I'm kicking around

at the moment because I've taken on one
or two projects which have a little bit

of a stretch for me in terms of the sector
knowledge, what I've discovered is that,

if I'm given, I've got a project that I'm
running at the moment, which is looking

at, it's again, slightly in healthcare,
but it's looking at, pharmaceutical

waste and the medicine supply chain and
farmers, big farmer and how it works.

and I've got to map all of
this kind of material out.

you know, I spent Two eight hour sessions
on chat gpt just Having this kind of

very vibrant conversation with it pulling
out key information Getting it to run

little maps for me little diagrams and
all the rest of it and in that kind of

in that kind of 20, 48 hour period, I
cracked it really about how that worked.

And I think that's, I think that's
super interesting because I couldn't

have done that without chat GPT.

I was thinking this is, this will
make me sound very pretentious,

but I was thinking, does AI
enable you to be a polymath again?

know when it comes to some of those
bits of some of those knowledge domains

because you know chat GPT I use it.

I use it in an intelligent way to me It's
an it's like having an intern working

with me I can just go and find out about
that Please go and find out about that

question, but it answers the questions
Instantly and you have to you know,

you've got to have a structured mind
to ask it the right questions and sure.

kevin_2_02-07-2025_150845: Yeah, I
think it definitely gets you from

zero up to a decent speed much
quicker than you could before.

But there's, in any domain,
there's, how it's supposed to

work, how it's written down.

And how it actually works and, where
those invisible or untalked about kind of

situations that people recognize because
you've been in that, sector or domain.

For a number of years and you kind of
just, you know, how things work and,

you've developed a vocabulary that you
can recall, rather than, if you've just

learned something over a couple of days,
you're not going to be able to recall

it all, in the heat of a workshop, yeah.

kevin_1_02-17-2025_141941:
yeah, great stuff.

Another, this is a slightly, prosaic
one, but, documenting projects, and

handing over to the client, the team,
is always something that's important,

particularly as the complexity of the
context and the decision making goes up.

and I'm just wondering how you handle
that sort of documenting the, all the

different workshops you do and the
decisions you make, and then how you,

hand over the design, and empower the
team that you've been working with.

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
Okay.

So with the documenting, obviously
they get a kind of report and

summary of what I've done, but
it's very centered on the map.

So the map was the first thing we
created, it's the boundary object.

So you know, as I go through those
other steps, we mark up the challenges.

So you annotate the
challenges onto the map.

You then annotate some of the
interventions you can make onto the map.

So you're always reporting
back onto the map.

So it becomes quite a visual report.

of maps, it's almost rather than a
written report, it's much more I don't

know if you remember, probably of
that age, Kevin, like my good self.

do you remember when a map
wasn't something in Google?

It was actually the Times Atlas, which

kevin_1_02-17-2025_141941: Yeah.

And you folded this up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
almost like a book of maps.

So an Atlas is a book of maps actually.

my report is usually a kind
of annotated set of maps.

So that's what it looks like physically.

the course of engagement, you're bringing
on board quite a lot of stakeholders.

I might have created the maps, having
discussions, there might have been 7,

500, 125 people in the organization have
been involved, in one session or another.

But what I always try to do is try and
present it back in a kind of webinar

format as invite those people back.

I always say to them that, this is,
you are the owners of this is your

material, this is your world that
I've mapped out, it's not my world,

so I must give it back to you.

Absolute number one pet hate.

all workshops is when you give up your
time to go to a workshop and no one gives

you back any feedback about that workshop.

just think that's rude.

And, you've got to give people
back and show them where they're

thinking came into the process.

So I always try to insist on
having some kind of webinar thing,

a 90 minute session, 45 minutes.

This is feedback and then
45 minutes of discussion.

Yeah, with that, with the collective
group as much as possible and record

it so it can go out to other people.

kevin_1_02-17-2025_141941: And, have you
seen them, really taking on that Miro

board or what, in whatever format you've
handed it over to them as, and, iterating

new versions of it in years to come?

Have you gone, have you got involved
with teams, a few years later and

see how they've, they've evolved that
the design that you handed to them.

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
Yeah, I have actually.

Yeah.

So some of the, quite a lot of these
things are now, 36 months into play and,

they all stay in touch with me really.

And, quite often I'll jump on a call
with them and we'll talk through.

Usually my kind of client in the
organization is some kind of,

probably not one, but a kind of
group of two or three people who are

championing it a bit to drive change.

So they might have
different job titles, but.

in a sense, you've got to have that as
your kind of link into the organization.

And yeah, the Miro board will sit there
unless there is, a team of at least

two or three people who are really
pushing it through and have the agency

in the organization to push it through.

But if you've got that, yeah, I
think I have seen them change.

there's a great quote from Eisenhower
is not necessarily one of my

heroes, but he has this great quote.

planning is everything, plans are nothing.

you know, will quite unfold
as you kind of planned it.

But it's the act of planning, which
is the incredibly important thing

because it surfaces the issues.

And I'm a kind of great believer in that.

And one of the things I found quite
remarkable is the, those people that I've

worked with have kind of, implemented,
I almost call it system shifting

change, where they've made or five
interventions over a period of time.

They then seem to have quite big shifts
in the performance of the system.

That's where it gets really
interesting, actually.

Yeah.

kevin_1_02-17-2025_141941: Yeah.

So you've not only decide, say you've
identified five interventions in

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
Yeah.

kevin_1_02-17-2025_141941: the
process that you've been involved

in, you haven't just done that.

You've also coached teams through how to
design those interventions so that they

can then, when they come across new.

Challenges.

they've been through the process a few
times and they feel, the confidence

about how to do it themselves.

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
Yeah.

And I think actually my, I do
see my practice has been, I'm

there to upskill the team.

Yeah.

I do that.

So there is that sense in which, I'm.

trying to make myself redundant.

I would always kind of, yeah,
they do call me back for the next

project sometimes to give the system
a jolt or something like that.

But I've become much more of, once
I've gone through the projects,

I become much more of a coach
to the project rather than, and

supporting them and mentoring them.

So it's more of a coaching
role than a mentoring role.

And so I, I very rarely, they might
come and ask me to come and map

out another part of the system,
another system or something.

But, yeah, my aim is always to upskill
people with this kind of, gentle bits

of methodology and get them to practice
it so that they can learn the craft.

you know, can't learn design
thinking from the playbook.

You've actually got to It's like
learning recipes from a cookery book.

You can't, someone said to me,
this quote Kevin, you can't

learn to swim in a library.

yeah, you've actually got to do it.

you can get the swimming book
out off the shelf, but you can't

actually learn to swim unless you
go to a swimming pool kind of thing.

That's, yeah.

kevin_1_02-17-2025_141941:
really about automation.

there's lots of companies and just
organizations generally looking for,

efficiencies and with the great hope
that AI is somehow going to deliver that.

I'm imagining that when you're hovering
up and looking at the whole system,

and you're looking to, obviously you're
trying to, Smooth out, experiences for

users and workers, but also looking
for organizational efficiency as well.

Operational efficiencies.

how often do you see the opportunity
for that in, in the work that you're

doing and what, and are there any
characteristics of a system where you

say, that's begging to be automated?

What, what are the telltale
signs, that, that, that flag

up that's a good opportunity.

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
that's a really interesting one because

I've been describing an awful lot of
my work, which is about system mapping.

There is, I do quite a lot of work.

One of the particular activity I'm very
involved with this work I do with innovate

is I do a lot of design coaching with
startup companies and, in all sectors,

but quite a few of those are in health
tech and they're trying to innovate.

And a lot of those are digital
companies that are coming up with,

replacing an existing system with a
kind of digital product or service.

And usually it's a kind of AI
enabled product or service.

So going back to your
question, absolutely.

when you see the system
as a whole, you can it.

The whole thing is probably ripe for
automation a greater or lesser extent.

And, usually that's yeah, I
think historically when we were

talking about automation, we were
often talking about creating a.

a digital version rather than
a paper version, if So using,

digital functionality to kind
of data, store it and so on.

But I genuinely see that, AI will, it's
getting there and it will accelerate.

It's, it is going to have a profound
impact on how you automate a

system back to your question about,
where do you see that happening?

Wherever you have to Wherever
you're triaging something or making

a decision, sorting something,
putting it into lanes or whatever.

and you're doing that kind of
with the touch of a human at a

moment, you can automate that task
and you can automate the flow.

And machine learning, which is the
kind of other element of AI where

you're harvesting data and over
time you're training your kind of

machine learning element of your
system to make predictive decisions.

Machine learning will.

have profound impacts on the way
these kind of systems work and,

and the way you make decisions.

So is, is probably the a significant
driver of improvement, greater

efficiency, innovation in these systems.

But again, it depends how you there's
ups and downs in that you in a lot of

the systems I'm dealing with, they're
all a bit dysfunctional because, and

people, they're very short of resource.

that's on a good day, actually,
that those kind of AI augmentations

are actually releasing people.

To, deliver a much higher quality service.

So we're not getting necessarily
getting replaced by machines.

We're just optimizing what we're
doing and then the machines are

optimizing what they're doing.

But I think that's massive.

kevin_1_02-17-2025_141941: And
hopefully less faxing going

on in the NHS going forward.

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
no, exactly.

it's a nonsense,

kevin_1_02-17-2025_141941: As the biggest
purchaser of fax machines, I think.

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
yeah.

Fax machines.

We're still having fax machines.

And yeah, holy moly.

it's interesting.

you look at health care systems
in a lot of developing countries.

They're much more digitally
savvy than the NHS is here in

England, they missed out a whole.

Generation of system,

kevin_1_02-17-2025_141941:
Yeah, just leapfrogged.

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
leap propped, look at an

African healthcare system.

It's all running off a mobile phone.

kevin_1_02-17-2025_141941: Great stuff.

this has been fascinating, Tom.

If people have, if you've tickled people's
fancy in terms of, Systems design.

have you got any pointers for any reading,
any YouTubes to watch any podcasts or

whatever any top tips for people would
like to dig into this topic a bit more?

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
Okay.

there's a myriad of different books
on systems thinking, and as we go all

the way back to the beginning of the
podcast, Kevin, saying, oh, they're

a bit scary when you open 'em up.

And I've got lots of books here, and
some of them I've opened up, some of

'em I haven't really, but one, one
go-to for me always is there's a,

the amazing systems thinker, Danella
Meadows, who unfortunately she died.

very young in, in 2001, I think it
was an American kind of academic.

She wrote an awful lot about
kind of ecological systems.

That was very much her thing,
but she wrote some amazing books.

She's got an amazing book
called, what's it called?

systems thinking book by Daniela
Meadows, thinking and systems.

And that's like very much a primer
and it's really well written.

And I think that's a fantastic book
and kind of legacy, it's been packaged.

there's a website called the Donella
Meadows project, or I'll give you the

URL, which has got some really useful
resources, references to her books

and so on, and there's some quick
guides to systems thinking there.

And actually she was
way ahead of her time.

if we look on LinkedIn, I get lots
of LinkedIn posts about regenerative

design and things like that.

The Donella Meadows was doing
this 25 years ago, 30 years ago.

And, there's a lot to be had
from just reaching back to the

origins of systems thinking.

And, Daniela Meadows explains
these things really clearly.

There's some people have begun
to write books, about how do you

glue the world of design thinking
and systems thinking together.

Some of those are really interesting one.

there's a good one I've got here.

It's, Closing the Loop Systems Thinking
for Designers by Cheryl Kebaba.

I think that's how we
pronounce her surname.

I've recently read that.

I think it's quite good.

I think quite good.

It's beginning to make those links.

I think there's a little bit more
refinement that needs to be done.

But those are two interesting sources.

there's the, another really interesting
group is the systems innovation network

is run by a very enthusiastic team.

Josh Colchester is one of those
team members here in the UK.

It's quite an international
network and they, it's quite an

open source sort of group and they
have quite a lot of pop up events.

I went to their systems innovation
conference in London in September.

They've just run a systems innovation day.

For, the public sector in London, I think
they had about a hundred people come

along, they're incredibly accessible
events, and I love them because you go

along to those events and you can go
along from almost any discipline just

hang out with people who want to find out
about systems, and you will have the most

amazing conversations because you will
rub up against people from the corporate

world, public sector, Transcribed
all with that kind of thirst for

knowledge or with quite a lot of sector
knowledge trying to piece it together.

So if anybody wants to Dip their toe
into the systems world look up systems

innovation network, and they'll probably
be an event them to distribute them

In different countries in different
cities, so they're a really interesting

place to go to and I'll put some give
you some information about call patient

ecosystem mapping and the work I do.

So if anybody's interested in this,
particularly from a healthcare

point of view, I'll give you
some resources for that too.

Yeah,

kevin_1_02-17-2025_141941: Brilliant.

This should be a particularly
rich, show notes edition.

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
yeah,

Love it.

I love a good bibliography, Kevin.

it all in Harvard style for you.

kevin_1_02-17-2025_141941: Great stuff.

great to have you on, Tom.

Thanks very much.

Excellent.

squadcaster-hf00_1_02-17-2025_141941:
really enjoyed the conversation.

Lovely to catch up with you and fantastic
to have the opportunity to chat about this

topic, which I'm very passionate about.

So thank you very much
for the opportunity.