Product Powwow

kev_2_09-19-2024_195338: Today I
talked to Christine Ruff and Sebastian

Stoddard about their move from design
leadership to innovation consulting.

I made contact with them while I was
writing my article on the same topic,

which in turn was prompted by a training
program I'd developed, on what it takes

for senior designers and design leaders to
make that leap into innovation consulting.

Before we get into it, I should
start by defining what I mean

by innovation consulting.

And to be clear, it's not about,
being an internal design consultant,

designing products and services for.

Customers, what I am talking
about is leading cross functional

teams to tackle complex internal
organizational challenges.

So for example, it might involve
testing how best to introduce

generative AI into the organization.

It might be about improving the staff
onboarding experience, or it could be

about bringing a new company vision
to life across the organization.

It might involve developing
an architectural brief for the

design of a new office space.

There are a multitude of different
types of projects, but they

all share three key attributes.

And that the challenges are a strategic
priority for the organization,

that the solution implies, cross
functional, cross silo collaboration,

and critically for designers, that
the challenge involves some elements

of a subjective human experience.

So we're not talking about, challenges
that involve drilling deep into technical,

financial, or engineering problems.

And I should say, I call this kind of
work innovation consulting, but there are

many other terms, for this role, including
business partner or change agent, but

they're essentially the same role and
support this conversation in a bit.

Bigger context, I see it as part of
the current design in the doldrums

conversation for two reasons.

First, Christine and Sebastian both
reflect on how they've added to

their design skills to become more
impactful in their organization,

which I think designers and
leaders could learn a lot from to

improve their day to day influence.

But secondly, Christine and Sebastian's
career track may prove to be a more

popular one in the future for some
design leaders who are looking to grow

into more business orientated roles.

It is definitely not for everyone,
but it may prove, one route out of the

doldrums for some of the more analytically
and relationship minded leaders.

Okay.

Enough of the setup.

Let's get into it.

. kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: Welcome to
the podcast, Christine and Sebastian.

The reason why I wanted you both
on is that you've both held design

leadership positions in the past
in big companies, and you've moved.

in a direction, which let's for argument's
sake, call it innovation consulting.

You can tell me what you call it
later, but I wonder if you could

just both introduce yourselves and
sketch out a brief story of how you've

moved from design into this new area.

So Christine, do you want to start first?

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233: Yes.

Thank you, Kevin.

And thanks a lot for having
me here and inviting me to

this super interesting talk.

Yeah.

So my career path, I started
off as a product designer.

And I've been working in an agency
And, some years I changed into the

in house design team of Philips.

And that was for the reason that I
had somehow the idea working in house

directly with marketing and engineering.

Would bring me actually
closer to adding value.

And then in Philips, I changed into
leading creative multidisciplinary

teams where we've, delivered.

I would say total brand
experiences and product ecosystems.

But I also got the opportunity to
step, after some time into a role

that was called at that time, design
business partner, even earlier before

they changed it into design business
partner, they called it a category design

lead, and this role was set up as a.

Permanent role in the business
management team of a business.

And that made me actually grow
into a quite different role.

So I came from design.

I was, facilitating and leading
design teams, but now I was sitting

in a, a business management team.

And that's where I actually made
a step into, what you might call

consulting or advising on innovation,
So I started to also work on

challenges, which were outside of the
normal delivery of design projects.

I was also busy and learning about
business strategy, innovation,

roadmaps, positioning, which actually
made me even adding an MBA in

2022 because I felt excited about.

Understanding how business works, how
can design at value how do I better talk

the language of my business partners?

How can I better empathize with that?

actually made me make this shift
in this move into, what we could

call design innovation consulting.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: Interesting.

when that, role came up, was that role
existed in Philips for quite a long

time and you knew other people who
played that role and then you moved

into it or was it something very new

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233:
It was created While I was at Phillips

and it was created specifically for
the purpose to make clear that design

is there to support the business.

wanted to build a stronger bond, but
there was nobody who had this role before.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: And
basically you moved from a sort

of central design function that
worked across the business, did you?

Into almost like a vertical business unit.

Is that right?

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233:
exactly.

and you could also say, so I didn't move
in terms of physical line management role,

but I had a kind of recognized, membership
role in this business leadership team.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: Got it.

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233:
And that made the difference.

So I aligned also my objectives with
business leader and how design would

support them, what we would deliver,
how we would support the strategy.

And over time, it even helped me to
build a role as also a facilitator.

In the end, I was facilitating
business strategy, inspiring innovation

roadmap, facilitating business value
proposition creation, really Being

part of the business and helping them
drive and scale the business forward.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: Great.

we'll get more into the actual role
in a second, but, Sebastian, do you

want to tell us your journey, if
you like, from design to whatever

you call, whatever you're doing now?

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
yeah, sure.

And, yeah, thank you
for having me on Kevin.

I'd say mine is perhaps a little
bit less linear in the sense

that it jumps around a bit.

But I started out as an
industrial designer, working as

a consultant for Tangerine and
Native and Phillips and people.

And I left to set up my own consultancy
and started to launch my own products.

And that sort of came from a frustration,
I think, that, I was only in charge,

actually similar to Christine, only
in charge of one part of the process.

And there are, lot more to building
a product than just the sort of look

and feel and perhaps the UX of that.

so after getting a couple of, products
launched along the market, one via sort

of Dragon's Den, went to do an MBA.

to learn to fill a lot of gaps in my
knowledge about exactly how to do that.

and then when I left the MBA, I
launched a software business, over in

the States, trying to improve, student
achievement, teacher quality in inner

city schools, and also at the same time
joined a, the board of a gym fitness

software business in Manchester.

and when the education business was
sold, I went to work for Samsung as

an internal innovation consultant.

So I actually almost, my pivot was out
of Running my own software business

being an innovation consultant.

focused, on mobile to begin with.

And then when I took over the
team there on all of the different

business units within Samsung.

And then after that, within Samsung, I
pivoted into a strategy and innovation.

role running a team looking at
innovation within the mobile sphere.

So everything from the future of the
car, future of digital products and

devices and VR, AR, those sort of areas.

then I left there about two years
ago to join Amazon web services,

as principal of digital innovation.

I focus purely on our
strategic telco customers.

and essentially we help them
grow by solving challenges.

So what I do is effectively I work
with teams within AWS and also,

with our strategic customers.

to, solve the problems that
they or their customers

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: great stuff.

And we'll probably come back
to that role a bit later.

But, a question for both of you, is
about the motivation behind that move.

So I know you probably
didn't plan it all out.

but what do you think it was
looking back that, that drove that,

That move away from pure design.

And I think you've hinted, at one thing
there, Sebastian, about frustration about,

only tackling, say, part of the problem.

I think if I've got you right.

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
I think, yeah, for me, certainly,

it was that frustration of, I think
design is heavily subjective, and I

think, that is something that when
you're, five people put in designs,

the senior manager decides which one
they go with, and then you iterate,

and, but It's incredibly subjective.

There's one right over another one.

It's hard to say.

When you get into launching
onto the market, there is a

good strategy a bad strategy and
you can support that with data.

And I think I found that in my design
career, I was using one side of my

brain, which is very creative, I
wasn't using that academic side.

which was much more analytical, much
more evidence based, much more data,

backed up and that's that, that
frustration was being able to support

one direction or another with data.

That's really what drove my frustration.

I wanted to be more control
of that process and, which

products were being released.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233:
What about you, Christy?

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233:
Yeah, I think it's similar to Sebastian.

So I think when I was in the agency,
I had a bit of frustration that I felt

outside of where actually the true magic
of bringing innovation to the market is

happening, So I wanted to be closer to
actually understand why a certain product

is actually needed for the company.

Why is this the right one?

Better advice on what would
be the next best innovation.

that's even made me also move inside and
then inside, I recognized if I wanted

to help understand the real challenge
and go away from the discussions that

Sebastian says, the subjective about this
color, that color, et cetera, then you

need to have a much better understanding
of what is the business challenge.

the end, what drove me is the
curiosity about understanding what is

really here, the business question.

is the challenge?

What does the business need?

And what do our consumers
need or customers need?

What is the real problem we
are trying to solve here?

and if you are interested in this
kind of questions, you need to take

a broader perspective than usually
learn in terms of, solutions doesn't

always take the business questions or
the production questions into account.

That's really what I discovered once
I had the opportunity to be in the

Business management team, I started
to understand what's all playing.

and that drove me and I think it helped
me to even make better design solutions

for them with a team, but also it gave
me the idea, Hey, we can actually add to

the business outside design solutions.

We can help them going through
this thinking process can help them

to bridge the language barriers.

Sebastian also did the MBA because it
helps you to speak the same language

with the different parties that are
involved in having impact as a business.

And that's what design can also
help with because we always

bring different aspects together.

We like a divergent thinking, right?

We like different perspectives.

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
I think he's,

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233:
That was my motivation.

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
it brilliantly in terms of

what the real problem is.

if you, quite often as designers we get
the sort of on the ground problem and we

can tackle that, but we're missing that
sort of, the bigger problem actually

is what the go to market strategy,
people can't find solutions on the

market or whatever happens to be.

And I think, yes, that desire
to tackle the bigger problem,

certainly helped, drove me as well.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: /Yeah.

And could you say anything about the
biggest challenges you experienced in

making that transition and it might
have prompted you both to do the MBAs.

I don't know.

but what did you find hardest
about making this shift?

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
I'll go first cause I think mine

is, It's simple, because it's
absolutely not something that

designers are taught, and it's sales.

It's actually putting yourself out there.

ringing people, cold calling people,
when you are trying to get things

launched onto the market, you're
actually trying to set up a business,

which means you have to be professional.

You have to have all the
right marketing material.

You have to have the website, you're
setting up a business, but you might just

be trying to, to license one product and
turning into a salesman as a designer.

was actually the thing I
found the most difficult.

understanding the business knowledge,
the financials, the marketing itself,

how to lead a team, all of that is
absolutely why I went to do an MBA.

but I think the biggest change for
me was putting yourself out there

a, you're selling yourself as much
as you're selling any product.

And that was, for me, I
think the biggest change.

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233:
Yeah.

That was slightly different for me
because it was an internal role.

I had just the opportunity to be in
this position, but it also felt a bit

as a burden because it was a new role.

It was, supported by higher management,
but I also had to prove my value there.

And, and I was sitting there in meetings.

I had no idea what is
this meeting really about?

So I felt a lot of pressure to learn.

about the business processes to understand
what are we actually doing here and

also to think about how can I add value?

So I have a right to sit at the table,
but what can I do to justify that?

it made me really, try to
learn as fast as possible.

What are the processes?

What are the needs of
all my business partners?

are they busy with?

Why is this so important for them?

Actually, what designers do, how
can I empathize with my customers?

Business partners, what do they need?

And then think about, okay, what can I
bring from my backpack of design tools?

That was one thing.

And then I think the business language
is what also I think Sebastian

said, you talk the same language.

That's very important.

I just, was joining a conference
from DMI where I heard again, a lot

of designers leave university and
they're very good at having that.

Great discussion about the aesthetics
of the sculpture of a product, right?

But if you need to talk with a product
manager, they have a very different

view at looking at the product.

So you need to talk their language
that I found very important.

and the other thing is, because I was
already part of a team and I wanted

to support, you need to get much
stronger in influencing and supporting

and your success is not that you
delivered a great product, but your

success is when somebody else says,
Hey, you add value in my meeting.

You add value by supporting me and
they go and they make the success

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
that for me is sales.

You are selling your
proposition, but you're

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233: Yes,

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
away.

you want it to have a life of its own.

It needs to, because you've got another
15 things that you're also working on.

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233:
Exactly.

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
how do you sell something?

You've got to speak, as you say,
you've got to speak their language.

You've got to have the data, the evidence.

So going into from a very
subjective world into a very data

driven world and having that.

data that they want to see, that
your customers want to see that

was something that was a huge step.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: Now, we've
talked about innovation in a very way.

Broad sense, so far.

So could you both give an example
or two of a type of project, that

you've been engaged with, that
clarifies how it's quite different

from the type of innovation that
you might've done as a designer.

Sebastian, do you want to go first?

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
okay, sure.

yeah, so I now, work for in, in
the telecommunications industry,

working on very large companies.

So you're very much involved in
everything from middle management

to, the cutting edge of what they're
trying to achieve and their long term

strategies to solving day to day problems.

one, project we worked on recently is,
led the process of Ericsson developing

their own, small language model.

So Ericsson, have created, their own,
LLM, it's actually an SLM, a small,

language model, and they're using that
to help solve, some of the problems in

the telco industry because they have an
incredible data set of, every stage along

that value chain within, the sort of the
telco cycle that they have that data.

And so they're uniquely positioned
to offer something that can

add value across the industry.

So that is incredibly different to
anything that you'd work on as a designer.

There is no tangible, product.

In fact, in a way, it's actually the,
you're creating the infrastructure

that other companies can create
their service services on top of.

so yeah, they're very different, to
anything I would have done before.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: But are
there any recognizable parts of that

project that, designers would recognize?

For example, were you doing any
sort of, I don't know, journey

mapping or something like that?

But alongside the more data
driven, more analytical stuff.

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
Yeah, absolutely.

And I think one of the big things
about Amazon and AWS is we have

a very clear process for how
we do innovation, how we work.

And it's always starting with the
customer and we call it working backwards.

We work backwards from the
customer because traditionally,

particularly in telcos, but actually
in every industry, people are

quite good at building platforms
and then trying to monetize them.

And this is, Amazon and AWS
believe very strongly you need

to start the other way around.

So if you are building a an LLM or an
SLM, how you access it, how are developers

building their products on top of it?

So very much journey mapping, very much
thinking about the future UX of how

those developers, who are your customers.

for the project, how are they accessing,
how are you making it easy for them, how

are you, allowing them to access those
APIs, where are they located, all of that

sort of the journey along the developer's
path, that's what you're thinking about.

from a designer's perspective,
you're creating that future U.

S., but you're doing it very
much within a business context.

Of the things that you're
unlocking for that customer.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: And what
role were you playing in that project?

So you're working with a, a team
in the client organization of

probably from different functions.

I don't know, but what's
your role in that project?

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233: my
role in this is very much a facilitator.

Christine spoke about, handing, the,
your baby over to somebody else.

this is actually the baby is created
with the customer themselves,

Erickson, and also with, within the
AWS sort of account team as well.

So my role is a facilitator.

I am the one there who's getting
everyone together, helping them think

in a way that's customer centric,
making sure that the output is going

to meet their business objectives, but
also the customer objectives as well.

Crafting that vision so it
could be clearly identified and

understood by senior management then
helping them bring that to life.

with the development teams,
with the account teams, with

the customer teams as well.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: Excellent.

And Christine, have you got an
example that would bring it to life?

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233:
yeah.

I tried to make it short because I
think I would like to have two examples.

The first one is, that when I was,
working for the beauty business as design

business partner, initiated a positioning.

And a new value space discovery project,
because we knew of course, that the

positioning of Philips goes more and
more in the direction of health tech.

And we, wanted to have more play.

How is this business
suited in this strategy?

And what would this enable
as new innovation spaces?

and as I said, so I was
initiating that and I was, leading

the, Cross functional team.

It was including engineering.

It was including, business development
and business, to identify, how to

place the mature businesses and which
new value spaces could be added to the

portfolio, for the beauty business.

That was, I think something that, was
very much, outside of what I usually

would do as just the design leader.

And it ended up with setting up, on small.

team within beauty that would
continue with exploring that

opportunities discussing how to
embed that in the I would say a more

streamlined mutual businesses later.

And the other project is
really only on facilitation.

and that is where I let the cross business
team design sustainably for Philips.

And I mentioned that because we had
many initiatives for sustainability and

also in the different design teams for
personal health, people were saying, yeah,

we work on this, but it's very spotty.

And that was an initiative
of the leadership team.

team of personal health, that
initiated one team to try to

bring this into a roadmap and they
were looking for a facilitator.

And as you can imagine, if you have
businesses, which are all equal,

it's difficult to find a leader
that facilitates that businesses.

So I thought this is an opportunity to
demonstrate how design actually can bring

this different perspectives together and
help them to create an aligned roadmap.

And that worked very successful.

There was a, after two years, we had an
aligned roadmap, how they would transition

the portfolio towards more sustainability.

it also again, how the design teams,
because there was no clear roadmap.

There were clear priorities.

And they could go and do
more of their design work by

building a clear hypothesis,
for example, for repairability.

two very different ideas.

And I think that's the beauty of
being a design kind of innovation

consultant with a design background.

You see the opportunities that's
in your nature, and you go and

see how you can enable them.

I think that's maybe the

that you mentioned, Sebastian, but
you're triggered as a designer,

you're triggered to see opportunities.

And you think, okay, can I enable them?

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: well on that
point about sales, and I guess this is to

both of you, to what extent did you have
to go out and make these projects happen?

And to what extent did the projects,
were defined elsewhere and then

someone contacted you to get involved?

how do these projects come about
and to what extent do you have

to almost sell yourself as a
valuable part of that project?

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
Christine, do you want to go first?

It's a good question.

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233: Yes.

Yeah, because, that's why I picked it too.

so the one about, the future positioning
and new value spaces in the, in the area

of female health, for beauty, that, that
is really a project that I had to sell in.

I've been part of the
strategy discussions.

I've been part of what are the
needs of the business right now.

And I had to convince them that
this could be helpful to, for the

sustainability of their business.

and that took actually quite
convincing and demonstrating

the value it could bring.

And also, yeah, getting buy
in financial means, of course.

The other project, was an
opportunity I saw where the project

was already initiated and I just
saw the opportunity to add value.

So it could be both.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: How about you?

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
Um, yeah, on my side where I work

now, it's so much of it is actually
selling the account teams internally

have to, like you and trust you to then
bring you in front of the customer.

There you have to sell the process.

and when I first started, we hadn't
been doing any work in the telco IBU, so

no one internally knew what we did or.

How we work.

so you sell yourself, you then sell
the process to the customer, and that's

typically at the sort of boardroom, level.

and then after that you have to sell, the
sort of trust of what a AWS can bring to

the team who are actually involved in it.

you cra you help them craft the vision.

You've then got to help them sell
that to their senior leadership.

And then after that you've got
to sell that vision and the

practical sort of first steps.

Onto, the, the sort of development
teams who are going to take it forward

and I would say a majority of these
things are well known that they're

yeah, we know that perhaps for, telcos
moving into higher value services

is going to add value, which higher
value services and how individual

company to do it is the challenge.

So I'd say the sort of
some of the territory.

You're aware of the project is
perhaps given to you, but it's

where it, how it manifests is
probably the most important thing.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: I don't
think we clarified at the beginning

about how new this role is at, AWS.

Are there lots of other people like
you, at AWS or are you one of the

first people in this kind of role?

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
So I'd say, so the team itself, I think

it's been going for four or five years,
there's about 10 of us globally, looking

after all the strategic customers across
all the different IBUs or business units.

and, that's not to say that
other people within the

organization don't work backwards.

Internally for our own internal
innovation, lots of people work

backwards, to create new solutions,
but with our customers, we're probably

one of the only teams who specifically
are set up to do this, at scale.

yeah, so there's not many of us and we
look after, I think it's several hundred

customers, so it's quite, quite intense.

but I think there's.

Yeah, it's a sort of specific role that's
growing within the organization where

we innovate on behalf of our customers.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: Yeah,
I guess I was wondering how

well understood your team is.

Within the organization, is there a
certain element of not just selling

into your clients, but also just raising
awareness within your company, AWS, about.

What your team is, what it
does, how it can add value

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
Absolutely.

Yeah, very much It is, yes,
that's probably an extra dimension

that you've got to sell as well.

It is just what you do and how you do
it and the value that process brings

on top of you just being in a room.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: Let's go
into skills now, because I think what

you've both brought to life there,
that the, some of the critical skills,

for your new role are maybe a lot
softer and more relationship based

than maybe the skills you focused on
when you were a designer, not to say

there weren't lots of soft skills in
being a designer, but it seems like

the selling, the relationship building.

is even stronger, but before me, we
putting any more words in your mouth.

what was it about being a designer
that helped you in this new role?

And then we'll get on onto the new
capabilities that you need to add on top.

But let's start with what was
it about your design background

that helps in your role?

Christine,

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233:
Ah, sure.

So I think, designers are known
for being extremely curious.

and I think, they're also
known for being very empathic.

Both of the skills helped me because,
when I got into this position, I

was extremely curious about, the
situation, the challenges of other

people, what were their needs?

what does the business need?

How does this work?

so I think I learned a lot just by
being open, curious, and, trying

to understand people I work with.

And that's probably also one of the
reasons when you talk about soft skills

that helps building a relationship
in business, because also there

it's about understanding each other,
speaking each other's understanding

each other's needs, a trust.

basis.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: in terms of
what you needed to build on top of your

design skills, you've already mentioned
that you needed to brush up on, your

business skills and understanding
all the business terminology and

concepts which the MBA helped with,
but what other, or maybe expand on

that, but how would you talk about
the extra skills and knowledge you

needed to add to your design knowledge?

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233:
I think really the knowledge

about how business works.

I think that's what, Sebastian
also mentioned really understanding

dependencies, processes, even economy,
how can economy influence individual

businesses, and then putting that together
with an understanding of organization, do

organizations work, how targets are set.

this is really more hardcore knowledge
and then additionally more social skills

in terms of how do you facilitate, how
do you moderate, how do you motivate

people to move along in a process?

And yeah, and something that I felt
very passionate about is how do you

design processes outside of design?

How do you take different
parties along also how do you

explain to them what design is?

because if you leave the of delivering
on designs, you need to harder sell

or explain what you can actually

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: Yeah.

And I guess you're also trying to
motivate and influence people you

have no authority over, right?

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233:
Exactly.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: that,
that's, that really amps up the

importance of those influencing skills.

Sebastian,

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233:
Yeah.

So I actually even did a training on
facilitation for that reason, which was

focused on facilitating large group,
interventions, that helps with how to

professionally take people along and
support them in finding down solutions.

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
Yeah.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: what are
the design skills that helped and

the new ones you need to add on top?

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
I think Christine said some great

ones there I think that ability to
see opportunities is massive because

Innovation doesn't also have to be new.

I mean it can be you know doing
the same old thing in a slightly

different way and You know just
being able to see that and identify

what could be a great opportunity.

I think is a great design skill.

and bearing in mind is my role
in my industry, really design

is never mentioned as a word.

It's almost, that innovation, that
creativity, is seen as being a

requirement just to do any job.

the sales team.

I'd say identifying also
what's new about something.

I think when you have 20 people all
giving ideas at the same time and

being able to synthesize that in about
10 minutes while everyone else is

having a cup of tea and come back and
say, you've all given these ideas.

This is what I think is.

sort of vision that you're trying to
create, and I think that's something

that designers are very good at, is
taking a lot of information in a short

space of time, synthesizing it, not
to be too literal about the double

diamond going broad and coming narrow,
but we're good at being either in

the details when we need to be, but
also having that bigger picture view.

as well.

So that's, I think, what we bring.

I think that you said
it perfectly, Christine.

Motivation.

How do you get people to do
what you'd like them to do?

Because, effectively, you believe you
have something that would add value to

your business or somebody else's business.

How can you provide different evidence?

And you'll often do a
different presentation to each

stakeholder you present to.

Because.

They want different things.

They're looking for something different.

what is it that's going to motivate
people, both within your team, but

most often, people who are much more
senior than you, to back the sort of

the vision that you've created and
that you want people to bring to life.

And I, I think one thing to mention
about innovation is it's difficult.

Innovation is challenging.

Strategy is largely
plotting a course forward.

That might be what the business
sort of believes it wants to do.

I think innovation is always coming
up with things that are challenging

and difficult and are gonna cost
money and they're not budgeted for.

And, it's often challenging
people, so it's motivating, people

who often don't necessarily want
to do what you want them to do.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: And have
you got any tips that you've picked

up there, Sebastian or Christine?

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
Um, I'd say first I, it's, yes, it is.

empathizing.

is thinking about, it's not about you.

of this is about us.

it's about how can we give, make a win
win or a win win win or a win win win win.

it needs to work for everybody.

Otherwise, It just won't work for
anyone and I think you know if you

think win wins and you empathize with
who you are not only developing the

service for or the solution for but
also with the people that You're trying

to motivate then you'll be much more
successful in bringing things through.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: Christine?

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233:
Yeah, indeed.

And I think that is a very important
point you just say, maybe I like to add,

it's very important that you have mutual
respect, that you understand each of

these people has their own expertise.

And that maybe you as a designer with your
design background, you do not necessarily

understand everybody at a certain moment.

If somebody says, Oh, I'm not
into this idea or that idea.

I think, really using your
design skills to try to better

understand, that's very important.

I think in the interaction and in the
relationship building, and if you have

this mutual respect, then you can also
challenge each other in a trustworthy

way and get to better results.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: Related
to that, there's, a question of,

it's very intangible question,
but a question of credibility.

big companies are used to, if they've
got a big strategic problem, the default

position often is to get a big, management
consultancy and, and, I'm probably,

this is more to Christine and Sebastian.

If you've moved from
being known as a designer.

And then suddenly you're rocking up
to a workshop to lead a team as a

consultant, as a, leading a team well
outside the domain of, overlapping

with design, but also covering, topics
well outside your traditional domain.

Did you have any challenges there in
terms of credibility that, that one,

you came from a design background.

Two, you were an internal, not
an external kind of consultant.

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233: Oh,
is a good, quite big question, actually.

Naya, so on one hand, I evolved
into this role over time.

that is a benefit because
of the time you involve.

And that also means in the time of
your career, you build proof points.

think that is something very important.

Usually, you need to convince people
by showing them the value you can add.

and, I personally, that's why I
personally prefer internally not

to use the word a consultant.

Because even if I talk to outside
consultants that come in, they prefer

to see themselves as a partner.

Because if you name yourself
a partner, it's clear that

you have the same end goal.

You have the same interest.

and, and you are in there.

With the others.

I think that helps.

it needs convincing.

It needs, you need to have people
that trust you and you need to

have the buy in, at least from
senior leadership to give you the

trust build the first proof points.

However, once you've built the
first proof points, you will see

that, you are recognized even
spills over to function of design.

Okay.

They get recognized.

Okay.

They can also add on this level, but
it has to be built by a proof points.

that needs to be overcome.

And it worked, for me often that there
were mentors or that there were people in

the organization that said, I trust you.

I trust that you can do that.

And, yeah, then you engage.

And if you can then deliver and show the
impact you've created, it becomes a pull

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233:
Definitely, yeah.

I think that point about doing it
gradually is a good one in internally

because I think switching hats suddenly,
has, its, has its challenges, doesn't it?

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233:
absolutely.

and the whole question of internal and
external is of course, a bigger one.

Because, I think as a benefit, indeed,
internally, you are a partner because

you're dependent on the success, and
I think everybody will understand

that credibility then is a challenge.

So you need to make sure that you,
indeed, with data, with, other resources,

that you bring prove that, that this is
really very well researched, that it's

data and fact based, that you can show
you have the same credibility as if

they would hire somebody from outside.

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
Yeah, I, working at Samsung, we worked

with a lot of external people, I think,
Kevin, you were even one of them.

and, if, when I saw strategic work done
by external consultancies versus the work

that was done internally, you have a very
different understanding of the customer.

Just what works, what's been tried before,
how to communicate, I think external

consultancies can't have that insight.

You can do a lot of interviews.

You can speak to a lot of people.

It's very difficult to really,
know what sort of, where the bodies

are buried or whatever it is.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: definitely.

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
internally, you have that experience.

It's a great benefit.

think to internal, consultants.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: And what
do you call yourself by the way?

internally, Sebastian, do you
call yourself a consultant?

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
no, not at all.

we're, innovators, is
what we'd call ourselves.

We call ourselves anything,
but we're problem solvers.

that, that's really what we call
ourselves because we are on the hunt

for customers who have problems to
solve and we try and solve them.

essentially are consultants,
but because we are very much

partners, as Christine said.

So I'm an investment in our customers.

So I'm free.

a very good value, should we say.

and our customers, they don't pay for me.

They don't pay for the people I bring
in, the SMEs, the subject matter experts.

They don't pay for any of it.

With this as an investment from AWS in
helping solve their customers challenges.

And.

As a result, yes, it's consulting, but
you're very much a partnering with them.

Because even if they actually
don't, use, build something new

on AWS, they might use a partner.

it's a long term investment and
over sort of five year period.

we typically see great returns
on it, but it's not something

in the short term has any value.

Yeah, consultancy doesn't really stand.

It's very much about being partner.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233:
And what's your team called?

Is it like the innovation
team or something?

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
We're called the digital innovation

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: Great.

as we draw to a close, if there's
people listen to this podcast,

that, you've piqued their
interest in this career route.

what advice would you give to
say, senior designers interested

in pursuing this direction?

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233:
Yeah, I think at first, I think

if senior designers are interested
in this area, that I think, they,

they should test if it gives them
energy to be busy with challenges

outside of normal design challenges.

I talk about really business
cases, business strategy.

I talk about efficiency, risk
management, profitability.

this are usually challenges that you
need to be very busy with when you try

to work in this area, maybe you can still
deliver design solutions, but this will

be very much your questions that you
need to answer that you need to show.

and, and you also need to consider
that you will be very much

busy with indirect influencing.

I know a lot of people said,
Oh, this is too much politics.

I wouldn't call it politics, but you
need to like to work really almost more

with people, than with things and ideas.

And, and for some designers,
this is, they love it.

And some designers.

rather work on the solution
and the idea themself.

and that's how I would
split, these two directions.

You need to see if that gives you energy.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: put.

squadcaster-c7g5_1_09-09-2024_114233:
And you can only try it out to

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: Very good.

what do you think Sebastian?

sebastian-stoddart_1_09-09-2024_104233:
absolutely agree with all of that

I think the in terms of Who's
going to find it interesting?

really, I think what needs to be doing
is building entrepreneurs And everyone

should have a side hustle and you'll
learn whether you want to have those

side hustles because you might have a
side project, but until you're actually

out there selling it, getting it made,
creating the marketing behind it, the

messaging, trying to raise money, you
won't know whether you're interested

in the business side of things.

So I would tell everyone to get out
there and start a side hustle and

see whether they're interested in.

conversations in working with people,
or whether they really want to focus on

the details and the great conversation
I miss heavily of discussing the

size of, part lines and, radii.

I miss those conversations, but
at the same time, I wanted more.

And I think, if everyone starts
out with that thing, and I always

say, we said to my team in Samsung.

To be successful in any organization,
you need one of two things.

It's either to know
something nobody else does.

Or you need to be working on something
that everyone else wants to work on.

and that first one of knowing something,
it's about connecting, it's about those

people, it's about how do you get things
to move through the business, is often, as

valuable in a business as anything else.

it's a very good skill.

kevin_1_09-09-2024_104233: do that.

thanks a million guys.

that's been absolutely fascinating.

kev_3_09-19-2024_202050: As is often
the case, when we stopped recording,

a new conversation topic And that
was, how designers can tend to

underestimate how creative their
colleagues in different functions can be.

So I caught up with Christine a few
days afterwards, just to let her

expand on that topic a little bit more.

kevin_2_09-16-2024_091306: So
how did moving beyond being a

classical designer Impact your
views on creativity and design.

christine-ruf_1_09-16-2024_101306:
So when I moved away from being a

designer myself, I would say a key
shift was being a designer means you're

usually very proud about the skills
you have, the creativity you have.

It's about having the great idea, that
gets picked, that will be developed,

that, excites, consumers or partners.

And when you move out of this position
and leading, for example, the design

team, it's much more, how can you
actually enable them to be creative?

Have this ideas.

And, what I recognized
the more I moved into.

There's role of leading teams, but
also leading multidisciplinary teams.

As we do in design, we
involve other functions.

that actually the creativity they bring
in is complimentary because you usually

bring in experts in their field and they
know a lot of stuff that you don't know.

And they understand maybe
the technology better.

They maybe understand the market better
or they understand the context better.

And, I think that made me think
we need to be humble that we don't

think, okay, we are the designers.

We have the great idea.

Usually the best ideas come
out of this intersection.

And then maybe we need to be
more humble and recognizing, hey,

actually they're the experts.

kevin_2_09-16-2024_091306: I can remember
being really struck the first time I

worked with an entrepreneur and I was
really struck by how creative he was

in lots of different domains, he'll
be creative in meetings with me around

the product, but I'd also see him being
creative about how to go to market.

I'd see him creative in marketing,
in so many different ways.

and also I've.

I know enough about science to know that
scientists can be incredibly creative

about how they design an experiment to
test the hypothesis and things like that.

So obviously creativity can be applied
across lots and lots of different domains.

What are your thoughts on what
it, what's its specific strengths

of designers or all kinds of
designers, the industrial designers

or UX designers or what have you?

What's the specific strength of the
kind of creativity that designers have?

christine-ruf_1_09-16-2024_101306:
I think, is this, this creativity

of seeing opportunities.

So you listen to this different ideas
and I think one of the strengths of

designers is really to listen well and
to empathize and try to understand.

where they come from, what is
this idea about, but then to see

the opportunity, what could this
mean, or how could we develop this?

Which I think is elaborating
on an idea from somebody else.

I think designers are quite good in
that and then making it tangible,

giving it a sketch, giving it a
prototype to see, Hey, let's try it.

and that is for a lot of people
already a kind of magic that in a very

humble, low cost way, designers help
them to deep dive their own ideas.

I really consider this a strength
that design brings to people.

That are very creative.

kevin_2_09-16-2024_091306: indeed.

I've always liked the, the Ron Arad,
I think it's Ron Arad, definition of

design was solving in a cultural context.

So

christine-ruf_1_09-16-2024_101306:
Exactly.

kevin_2_09-16-2024_091306: that basically

christine-ruf_1_09-16-2024_101306: Nice.

kevin_2_09-16-2024_091306: at solving
problems, but in that context of

aesthetics, taste, behaviors, fitting
into the zeitgeist the rest of it.

So I think that's a
particular type of creativity.

That designers are good at, but as you
said, and I think that the extra bit

that I would add to that definition
would be that ability to join the

dots across different disciplines,
because I think we are good at that.

I think that's the bit that I guess
you were really leaning into in

that role as a business partner.

christine-ruf_1_09-16-2024_101306:
Yeah, exactly.

And that's what I also recognized
sometimes with requests coming to me.

So how can we help with that?

We have this idea or
we have this challenge.

that's why I think there is also
kind of art of creating processes.

Or designing processes where you bring
people together to work together to

help them with their own creativity
and have the ideas fly and evolve.

kevin_2_09-16-2024_091306: Indeed.

Great.

I think that's covered all the
things that I wanted to cover.

Was there anything else that
you think we should mention?

christine-ruf_1_09-16-2024_101306:
I think you, you mentioned something

nice when you made the citation
about the importance of the context.

and I think that's also something
that, that changed my mind about

creativity and being more humble
about other people's ideas, because

we usually come in as designers.

We are not the experts.

We are more the generalists and really
understanding that other people have

a much better view on the context.

And a much more detailed view.

I think that's very important
because you probably can do as much

design research as you want to.

If you're a person out of that context,
you just have a different access point.

And I think that's a very important
point for us as designers to recognize.

kev_4_09-19-2024_202515: So just to
let you know, I'll be speaking about

this topic at the DMI Boston conference
on Tuesday, the 24th of September.

And I'll look to share
the deck soon after.

So keep an eye on my LinkedIn feed
and I'll also send out a link to

the deck in a future newsletter.